Obama hostilie towards christians?

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
Your first point goes back to what I said about the biblical explanation for "God"

I believe in a higher power of sorts, the nature of which is a mystery to me. I do believe life is much more than random. I do not believe that random matter can suddenly become selfaware. Billions of years of evelution isn't even a blink in the scope of time and ...[text shortened]... has limits. There are some things we are simply incapable of learning or understanding.

It sounds like you're describing Deism.

Another interesting question is why are we conscious of our own existence? How did we attain this consciousness?

I had a student who was a Deist. We had many long conversations about these issues. The issue with Deism is that to every major philosophical question, it answers with some variant of "I don't know." Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that. But, it's not a very intellectually satisfying belief system.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper

With all of our amazing accomplishments and everything we've learned, as a species we fail to realize that our wonderful minds still has limits. There are some things we are simply incapable of learning or understanding.

Interesting that you see the idea that we have limits as something that we haven't learned. I think it's something that we should never learn or accept.

Newton stopped his investigations because at one point he couldn't think of any other reason other than god to explain some of what he observed - he was wrong.

There may be some things that we are incapable of learning or understanding, but I want the human race to die trying to learn and understand those things. I think accepting that those things exist simply puts an artificial block on what we try to understand and investigate.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
With all of our amazing accomplishments and everything we've learned, as a species we fail to realize that our wonderful minds still has limits. There are some things we are simply incapable of learning or understanding.

Yes, there are many things the human mind is simply incapable of comprehending, including:

1) When was the origin of matter? If there was no begining, what does that mean? If there was a begining, what was before that? Where did the original matter come from? Energy? Fine. Where did the energy come from?

2) When was the begining of time? What was before that?

3) What is beyond the outer limits of space? If there are no such limits, what does that mean?

4) Can matter be broken down into smaller pieces infinitely? If so, how can there be a true building block of matter?


I think the fact that we don't and can't possibly attain answers to those questions militates against outright atheism. If we can't explain or understand these things, how can we be sure there's no God?

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
Your first point goes back to what I said about the biblical explanation for "God"

I believe in a higher power of sorts, the nature of which is a mystery to me. I do believe life is much more than random. I do not believe that random matter can suddenly become selfaware. Billions of years of evelution isn't even a blink in the scope of time and has limits. There are some things we are simply incapable of learning or understanding.

So what you are saying is that we need some point of reference in order to conceptualize something and you are absolutely right!! For example, I beleve that God created the material world thus creating time. Time is merely a demension of the material world he created thus when the Big Bang came about time was created. So what was before the Big Bang? That is something we have no point of reference and cannot fathom an existence before that time, however, I believe it is a demension from wence God came.

As far as who God is, I think there are clues. For example, when we create things we can deduce things about ourselves from what we create. For example, it tells us a little something about our intelligence and our desires etc. In effect, things we create become a reflection of our own being. I think this is what is meant by the Biblical teaching that we were made in the image of God.

Of course, this is a bit off topic and probably belongs in the spirituality forum but it is fascinating to talk about nontheless.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
Interesting that you see the idea that we have limits as something that we haven't learned. I think it's something that we should never learn or accept.

Newton stopped his investigations because at one point he couldn't think of any other reason other than god to explain some of what he observed - he was wrong.

There may be some things that we are ...[text shortened]... se things exist simply puts an artificial block on what we try to understand and investigate.

Oh, I never suggested we give up. Even though (just like all animals) our minds are limited I believe we've barely tapped our potential.

But still we cannot escape the fact that there are some things that are so far beyond the human brain it's like trying to teach that monkey how microchips function.

Originally posted by sh76
Yes, there are many things the human mind is simply incapable of comprehending, including:

1) When was the origin of matter? If there was no begining, what does that mean? If there was a begining, what was before that? Where did the original matter come from? Energy? Fine. Where did the energy come from?

2) When was the begining of time? What was before t ...[text shortened]... atheism. If we can't explain or understand these things, how can we be sure there's no God?

Atheism is just that you don't believe that there is a god.

I personally don't say that I know that there is no god, I just don't see the evidence pointing to there being a god.

I don't think humans are incapable of comprehending the things you mentioned, but I think they are just far out of our comfort zone.

We have an innate sense of what's "normal" and that's not always a good sense for what's real. Quantum physics is one example that you mention - behavior starts acting differently than our "common sense" dictates and so it sounds to us as illogical. Even geniuses like Einstein refused to believe the discoveries of quantum physics.

There are people who have much greater understanding of those things right now though.

There are some of those things that we will likely never be able to know for sure, but we can get closer by finding ways to investigate those things like quantum physics.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
Let's remove the biblical description of "God" and our genesis for a moment.

Everything that happens in the universe was destined to happen based on the conditions surrounding it. For example; the path and speed a comet will travel has been pre-decided by the conditions that caused the comet. And whatever caused the comet to take flight had con ...[text shortened]... our brain that make you "think" you do were predetermined infinate years ago.

Deep.

1) We cannot trace causality before the Big Bang, so no tracing back infinitely as you claim.

2) Quantum mechanics is not consistent with that deterministic perspective. You're talking nineteenth century physics. We've advanced our knowledge since then.

3) How can a theist believe in free will? They believe in an infinitely powerful, all knowing God who knows what will result from anything he does. He creates a human short instead of tall, black instead of white, male instead of female, he knows exactly how that will affect the person's future choices. He controls every single variable that influences human decisions knowing exactly what the result of any change of the person's environment will be!

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
Oh, I never suggested we give up. Even though (just like all animals) our minds are limited I believe we've barely tapped our potential.

But still we cannot escape the fact that there are some things that are so far beyond the human brain it's like trying to teach that monkey how microchips function.

Ok. You have a point, but us and those monkeys have a common ancestor and we evolved into people who can create those micro-chips.

Hopefully we will evolve into people who can create things that you and I could not possibly comprehend ourselves. 🙂

Originally posted by whodey
So what you are saying is that we need some point of reference in order to conceptualize something and you are absolutely right!! For example, I beleve that God created the material world thus creating time. Time is merely a demension of the material world he created thus when the Big Bang came about time was created. So what was before the Big Bang? That ...[text shortened]... c and probably belongs in the spirituality forum but it is fascinating to talk about nontheless.

For many things the problem IS a point of reference, I totally agree. But I also think it goes beyond that. Going back to my analogy, a monkey can be given all the same references but it NEVER grasp certain concepts that are even simple for a human child.

Without a doubt some things are just over our head. It would be amazing to know what those things are. But then if you did you wouldn't be human.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
Atheism is just that you don't believe that there is a god.

I personally don't say that I know that there is no god, I just don't see the evidence pointing to there being a god.

I don't think humans are incapable of comprehending the things you mentioned, but I think they are just far out of our comfort zone.

We have an innate sense of what's ...[text shortened]... t we can get closer by finding ways to investigate those things like quantum physics.

I actually think he was asking all the right questions. The kind that drive me crazy when I think about them. I want to know so badly but i know I never will.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
Atheism is just that you don't believe that there is a god.

I personally don't say that I know that there is no god, I just don't see the evidence pointing to there being a god.

I don't think humans are incapable of comprehending the things you mentioned, but I think they are just far out of our comfort zone.

We have an innate sense of what's t we can get closer by finding ways to investigate those things like quantum physics.

I was under the impression that agnosticism was when you simply don't know if there's a god (i.e., you see no evidence and thus no reason to believe). Atheism is, I believe, an affirmative belief that there is no God. Either way, that's just semantics.

I think there are some things that the human mind simply can't comprehend no matter how intelligent and advanced we become. Think of the "beginning of time" and what that means and what might have existed before that for a few minutes. I don't think the human mind is built to tackle that issue.

Originally posted by sh76
I was under the impression that agnosticism was when you simply don't know if there's a god (i.e., you see no evidence and thus no reason to believe). Atheism is, I believe, an affirmative belief that there is no God. Either way, that's just semantics.

I think there are some things that the human mind simply can't comprehend no matter how intelligent and adv ...[text shortened]... efore that for a few minutes. I don't think the human mind is built to tackle that issue.

Exactly! Now let's suppose that time has always existed. Wrap your mind around that one. Infinity years ago? How is that possible?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
3) How can a theist believe in free will? They believe in an infinitely powerful, all knowing God who knows what will result from anything he does. He creates a human short instead of tall, black instead of white, male instead of female, he knows exactly how that will affect the person's future choices. He controls every single variable that influen ...[text shortened]... n decisions knowing exactly what the result of any change of the person's environment will be!

The Deity gives the human free will. I don't see why that's much of a question. A better question is, if the Deity knows the future, how could a person have free will? But with an all powerful Deity in the equation, there's never really a question that will bother a theist too much.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
Exactly! Now let's suppose that time has always existed. Wrap your mind around that one. Infinity years ago? How is that possible?

Now I have a headache. Thanks! 😉

Originally posted by sh76
I was under the impression that agnosticism was when you simply don't know if there's a god (i.e., you see no evidence and thus no reason to believe). Atheism is, I believe, an affirmative belief that there is no God. Either way, that's just semantics.

I think there are some things that the human mind simply can't comprehend no matter how intelligent and adv ...[text shortened]... efore that for a few minutes. I don't think the human mind is built to tackle that issue.

Well, I do believe that god doesn't exist. I however don't say that I couldn't be wrong.

There's a fine line between agnosticism and atheism. Some refer to "strong atheism" being the affirmative or strong belief that there is no god.

I agree that the human mind isn't built to understand the "beginning of time" and what that means. We are only used to timespans that are in mere 100 or so years.

I don't think the human mind is quite built to understand quantum physics either, but we kinda do (although there is a lot more work to do).