31 Aug 12
Originally posted by KunsooThe plant was still producing trucks in 2009. THEN it went on standby, where it has stayed, because of the crap economy. There was no lie.
The lie is the implication that the plant close, not in Clintonesque wording terms using cute terms like "stand-by", but in actual functional terms. His implication was that Obama failed to keep the plant open during his Presidency. It's a lie. Not a fib. Not an exageration. And outright lie. Ryan proved himself to be a soulless shell of a suit, with no core values. And he's paying the price.
Originally posted by SleepyguyThat's a distortion. They laid off all but a few dozen workers who were left to finish a contract to build some trucks for a non-GM firm. The plant was intended to shut down after that order was finished and that decision was made before Obama came into office.
The plant was still producing trucks in 2009. THEN it went on standby, where it has stayed, because of the crap economy. There was no lie.
Plus Obama never specifically claimed he'd keep that particular plant open as Ryan claimed he did. That was the major reason Politifact gave the Ryan assertion a False rating.http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2012/aug/29/paul-ryan/did-barack-obama-break-promise-keep-gm-plant-open/
31 Aug 12
Originally posted by no1marauderCandidate Obama at Janesville promised another 100 years.
That's a distortion. They laid off all but a few dozen workers who were left to finish a contract to build some trucks for a non-GM firm. The plant was intended to shut down after that order was finished and that decision was made before Obama came into office.
Plus Obama never specifically claimed he'd keep that particular plant open as R ...[text shortened]... /wisconsin/statements/2012/aug/29/paul-ryan/did-barack-obama-break-promise-keep-gm-plant-open/
http://twitchy.com/2012/08/30/obama-lied-about-janesville-gm-auto-plant-not-ryan/
When the plant shut down isn't as important as that it did, and President Obama, the new CEO of Government Motors did nothing to back up his promise, while he kept other GM plants open, like Spring Hill, TN and Poletown, Detroit.
31 Aug 12
Originally posted by normbenignTry reading the link I gave; Obama made no such promise. Nor could Obama "keep plants open" by fiat.
Candidate Obama at Janesville promised another 100 years.
http://twitchy.com/2012/08/30/obama-lied-about-janesville-gm-auto-plant-not-ryan/
When the plant shut down isn't as important as that it did, and President Obama, the new CEO of Government Motors did nothing to back up his promise, while he kept other GM plants open, like Spring Hill, TN and Poletown, Detroit.
31 Aug 12
Originally posted by normbenignObama is not "the government".
Candidate Obama at Janesville promised another 100 years.
http://twitchy.com/2012/08/30/obama-lied-about-janesville-gm-auto-plant-not-ryan/
When the plant shut down isn't as important as that it did, and President Obama, the new CEO of Government Motors did nothing to back up his promise, while he kept other GM plants open, like Spring Hill, TN and Poletown, Detroit.
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31 Aug 12
Originally posted by SleepyguyOkay, so there were 1200 employees in December of 2008 when the final decision to shut down was made (actually, according to the Washington Post, the real decision was made in June, 2008). 57 remained to close out the truck assembly line. So in an extremely technical sense, Ryan told the truth. Except that it was still beyond Obama's ability to affect the outcome.
I've already given it to you dude. The Janesville plant stopped production of SUVs in 2008 and wasn't idled until after it completed production of medium-duty trucks in 2009. That pic you linked is probably the last SUV.
From the Post blog:
Let’s break down, then, the exact chronology of the Janesville plant closing; Conn Carroll of the Washington Examiner has helpfully posted one here, which I add to below. The basic takeaway, however, is this: by December 2008, the plant had reached a point of no return where the plant would be shut down regardless of federal action. Ryan was faulting Obama for an that was event that was inevitable over a month before he took office.
February 2008: At a campaign stop in Janesville, Obama says, ”I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years.” As Politifact writes, “That’s a statement of belief that, with government help, the Janesville plant could remain open — but not a promise to keep it open.”
June 3, 2008 – GM decides to close the Janesville plant, announcing that production will end by 2010, after months of rumors it might close. The press release declares, “Janesville, Wisconsin, will cease production of medium-duty trucks by the end of 2009, and of the Tahoe, Suburban and Yukon in 2010, or sooner.” Senators Herb Kohl and Russ Feingold, both Democrats, and Paul Ryan, whose House district includes Janesville, write the company urging it to reverse the decision.
September 2008 – Paul Ryan flies to Detroit to urge GM to reconsider its decision to close the plant. According to the Los Angeles Times, he pitched “a $224-million proposal that included roughly $50 million in state enterprise zone tax credits, local government grants worth $22 million and major contract concessions from the United Auto Workers union local.” Throughout, Ryan frequently speaks with GM chief Rick Wagoner.
Oct. 11, 2008 – Barack Obama comments on the Janesville closing. He does not promise to prevent the closing-in-progress, but instead declares he will “retool plants like the GM facility in Janesville” (emphasis mine) as president. Regardless of one’s views of the auto bailout, it has saved facilities like the Janesville one, if not the Janesville one in particular.
November/December 2008 – Congress weighs a bailout of GM and other automakers. One proposal, backed by Ryan and 31 other House Republicans, but not Mitt Romney, would have provided $15 billion in bridge loans. The bill passed the house but was not picked up by the Senate. The Bush administration declines to use TARP funds to rescue automakers, but approves a bridge loan on Dec.19, too late to save the Janesville plant.
Dec. 23, 2008 – Lacking a bailout, the plant closes. The plant holds a “final goodbye ceremony” as it builds its last SUV. In a statement to MSNBC, GM confirmed that the plant “was idled” in December. But — and this is where it gets confusing — winding down a plant takes time.
April 21, 2009 – The Janesville plant builds its last medium-duty truck and shuts down its last assembly line, completing the shutdown process started in June 2008.
In short, the Janesville shutdown commenced in June 2008. Once it was clear that aid wasn’t forthcoming in November, actual assembly lines were being shut down by December. It is true that Paul Ryan tried to get the Obama administration to save another plant, in Kenosha, which the Obama administration failed to do. Attacking Obama for that is fair. But hitting him for Janesville is dishonest. The first assembly line stopped rolling in December 2008. Workers unfurled banners declaring the “Last Vehicles Off the Janesville Line” at a “final goodbye ceremony,” The plant was closing regardless of what Obama did.
This is a very strange dispute, in a way. Mitt Romney wrote an op-ed in the New York Times under the title “Let Detroit Go Bankrupt,” and now his campaign is trying hard to fault Obama for not bailing out automakers aggressively enough. Not only that, but after the campaign’s repeated denunciation of the Obama administration for “picking winners,” Ryan is faulting Obama for not “picking a winner” not just among companies, but among plants. He’s attacking Obama for not using the government to micromanage GM’s affairs.
Ryan lied, with Clintonesque cover. He's paying for it now.
31 Aug 12
Originally posted by no1marauderI heard his speech at Janesville.
Try reading the link I gave; Obama made no such promise. Nor could Obama "keep plants open" by fiat.
And he did have the power to fire Rick Wagner. How much more did he need to keep Janesville open and keep his promise?
Making promises you can't keep is lying anyway.
31 Aug 12
Originally posted by Kunsoo"February 2008: At a campaign stop in Janesville, Obama says, ”I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years.”
Okay, so there were 1200 employees in December of 2008 when the final decision to shut down was made (actually, according to the Washington Post, the real decision was made in June, 2008). 57 remained to close out the truck assembly line. So in an extremely technical sense, Ryan told the truth. Except that it was still beyond Obama's ability to affect the ...[text shortened]... icromanage GM’s affairs.
[/i]
Ryan lied, with Clintonesque cover. He's paying for it now.
Ok, so technically, to use your terms, Clintonesquely, Obama seemed to make a promise which was only a hope.
The fact is that the plant at the time of his inauguration was still ready to be back on line, and still is. In the managed bankruptcy of GM, the government under direction of CEO Obama by fiat made lots of changes in GM including saving some plants, favoring some employees over others, throwing creditors, suppliers and dealers to the wolves, and firing CEO Wagner. He made no effort to make his hope come true, or to keep his perceived promise to the Janesville workers.
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31 Aug 12
2 edits
Originally posted by normbenignActually, what he said was that if the government helped, it could stay open. Unfortunately, he wasn't in power, Bush didn't provide the help, so it closed. Nothing in his statement implied that he was making promises on behalf of Bush.
"February 2008: At a campaign stop in Janesville, Obama says, ”I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years.”
Ok, so technically, to use your terms, Clintonesquely, Obama seemed to make a promise which was only a ...[text shortened]... effort to make his hope come true, or to keep his perceived promise to the Janesville workers.
Incidentally, by your definition of the closure, Ryan was still lying because the plant then "closed" over a year after Obama's statement. If we're going to be hypertechnical, then let's be balanced.
01 Sep 12
Originally posted by KunsooWhich one of the following sentences contains the lie? I've numbered them for you.
Okay, so there were 1200 employees in December of 2008 when the final decision to shut down was made (actually, according to the Washington Post, the real decision was made in June, 2008). 57 remained to close out the truck assembly line. So in an extremely technical sense, Ryan told the truth. Except that it was still beyond Obama's ability to affect the ...[text shortened]... icromanage GM’s affairs.
[/i]
Ryan lied, with Clintonesque cover. He's paying for it now.
1. My own state voted for President Obama.
2. When he talked about change, many people liked the sound of it.
3. Especially in Janesville where we were about to lose a major factory.
4. A lot of guys I went to high school with worked at that G.M. plant.
5. Right there at that plant, candidate Obama said, "I believe that if our government is there to support you, this plant will be here for another 100 years."
6. That's what he said in 2008.
7. Well, as it turned out, that plant didn't last another year.
8. It is locked up and empty to this day.
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01 Sep 12
2 edits
Originally posted by SleepyguyAs I said, it was a very clever wording. His advocates are now saying "he never blamed Obama for the closing." But of course, the implication everyone walked away from the speech with was that Obama made a promise, came to office, blew the promise, and consequently the plant closed.
Which one of the following sentences contains the lie? I've numbered them for you.
1. My own state voted for President Obama.
2. When he talked about change, many people liked the sound of it.
3. Especially in Janesville where we were about to lose a major factory.
4. A lot of guys I went to high school with worked at that G.M. plant.
5. Ri rned out, that plant didn't last another year.
8. It is locked up and empty to this day.
Now, if the media hadn't picked right up on it and started calling him a liar, he might have pulled it off. Mostly the media doesn't bother, or they do an obligatory "fact check" that nobody pays attention to. But this one was brazen, and so easily debunked. And it called into question other things he said, which might not normally have gotten the attention. But this was pushing the envelope too far, and it cost him some crucial political capital which has his spokespeople crying fowl. After all, Obama's people lied about Romney's position on abortion (unless of course you look closely at the wording). Romney can of course deny it, but then he has to restate his position which reminds his conservative wing of his actual position, and the fact that he used to be pro-choice, and probably remains so privately.
You have to lie with a little more subtlety, and Ryan had the wording, but it was too easily debunked. Sure, there'll be some coverage of the 57 person skeleton crew who remained to keep it "open," but the effect is gone. Nobody believes him. He won't be repeating it. And he's lost some credibility.
Romney's people overplayed their hand - desperately trying to change the dynamic of the race. But now the Medicare and work requirement for welfare lies are called into question.
Fail.