Pure evil

@no1marauder said
Already explained. It codifies the law regarding third trimester abortion while making some fairly minor changes like allowing medical professionals who aren't physicians to perform some abortions.

None of that is worth the ridiculous, misleading rant you cut and pasted.

As I have already pointed out, it broadens the scope for which abortions can be performed. All a woman now need to do is say, "If you don't give me an abortion, I'll kill myself!"

@whodey said
As I have already pointed out, it broadens the scope for which abortions can be performed. All a woman now need to do is say, "If you don't give me an abortion, I'll kill myself!"

Your point is a falsehood and your example BS.

@no1marauder said
Your point is a falsehood and your example BS.

So under the current law a woman could not obtain an abortion by saying that she is of such a mental state that if she does not have an abortion she will kill herself?

I'm not even sure why it matters what the laws say after the example of how Dr. Gosnell was treated by the state. Here was a man who violated law after law after law after law, but instead of forcing him to comply or shut him down they just stopped coming round because in the mind of the Progressive, any restrictions on abortions is unacceptable and a threat. 30 years he continued to kill and abuse as it was only by chance that he was discovered by the wrong people who did not bow to the threats of convicting an abortion doctor.

Progressives either change laws or ignore them. They are lawless.

@whodey said
So under the current law a woman could not obtain an abortion by saying that she is of such a mental state that if she does not have an abortion she will kill herself?

I'm not even sure why it matters what the laws say after the example of how Dr. Gosnell was treated by the state. Here was a man who violated law after law after law after law, but instead of forcing him to ...[text shortened]... convicting an abortion doctor.

Progressives either change laws or ignore them. They are lawless.

In case you missed it, which you apparently did, "Your point is a falsehood and your example BS."

@whodey said
So under the current law a woman could not obtain an abortion by saying that she is of such a mental state that if she does not have an abortion she will kill herself?

I'm not even sure why it matters what the laws say after the example of how Dr. Gosnell was treated by the state. Here was a man who violated law after law after law after law, but instead of forcing him to ...[text shortened]... convicting an abortion doctor.

Progressives either change laws or ignore them. They are lawless.

Your premise is that after carrying a ZEF for more than six months, some proportion of pregnant women would come up with a contrived reason just to get an abortion. I challenge you to present one example where this occurred. An actual, well-founded probability of suicide might well be a sufficient threat to a woman's mental health as to justify a third trimester abortion (after all a successful or even unsuccessful attempt at suicide would almost certainly terminate the pregnancy anyway) but I have no statistics to indicate that this occurs at all.

Perhaps you should consider this article:

When people talk about how states are allowing women to gleefully murder their fully-developed infants, ask yourself if you know any women who would actually do that. You probably don’t, unless you spend a lot of time with some women who are willing to undergo tremendous personal discomfort and great costs—late term abortions can cost $20,000—in order to satisfy their strange bloodlust. I’ve certainly never met a woman like that. Mostly because they are, as far as I personally can tell, non-existent. There are very few women who go through three trimesters of pregnancy not expecting to have a child. Only around 1 percent of abortions take place after five months, and when they do, that is almost always because a tragedy has occurred.

ADVERTISEMENT - CONTINUE READING BELOW


Some brave women have spoken to the Guardian about their choice.

One found that her child’s brain was not developing and asked her doctor:

“What can a baby like mine do? Sleep all the time?”

“Babies like yours are not generally comfortable enough to sleep,” the neurologist said.

These women are given a choice between abortion and resigning their baby to a life of extreme pain.

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Every mother interviewed agonized over their decision. No woman opts for a third trimester abortion as if it’s a fun kind of birth control. To imagine that they do is not only to misunderstand the difficulties and cost of that procedure, but to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of people.

When conservatives like Matt Walsh rather ghoulishly asked of late term abortions, “Why is it necessary to kill the baby first? Why not deliver him alive and give him a chance at least?” The answer is: because the fetus has not developed in a way that will equip it for a life outside the womb that is not brief and filled with pain. Some women choose to deliver and let their children die in their arms. Doubtless, that is one of the worst days of their lives. Some women choose to abort so their child will not have to suffer. Doubtless, that is one of the worst days of their lives. To act as though these women have casually chosen to abort that child on a whim is an unforgivable insult to every woman who has had to make that awful choice.

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a26042120/new-york-abortion-facts-explained/

You and I will never face such a choice.

Gosnell was convicted in Philly and got life without parole. That sounds like the law was enforced.

@no1marauder said
Your premise is that after carrying a ZEF for more than six months, some proportion of pregnant women would come up with a contrived reason just to get an abortion. I challenge you to present one example where this occurred. An actual, well-founded probability of suicide might well be a sufficient threat to a woman's mental health as to justify a third trimester abortion ...[text shortened]...
Gosnell was convicted in Philly and got life without parole. That sounds like the law was enforced.

So you're saying that women are not sociopaths and would not want an abortion third trimester because of that? Also, the article I provided had a doctor that said he knew of virtually no cases where a woman's like would be in danger third trimester to kill the infant.

Funny, sounds like passing this New York law was completely meaningless. Almost makes you wonder why they would do it at all, doesn't it.

But there are sociopaths, are there not? There are women all the time who give live birth and then throw them in garbage heaps.

As for Gosnell, the reason he got caught was a pure fluke. Gosnell's office got mixed up in an FBI investigation over narcotic usage. Was the FBI concerned about the mistreatment of women there? Nope. If it were not for a brave soul in the local police department who demanded action, the story would never have seen the light of day. As it was, the person in charge of the investigation was warned repeatedly that if they proceeded with the investigation it might mean the end of their career, simply because it was an investigation into an abortion clinic, a clinic that the state stopped doing inspections on for some 30 years that caused the loss of life for a myriad of women and children.

In other words, it should never have happened. All I know is that it continues to happen, on what level, we will never know.

@whodey said
So you're saying that women are not sociopaths and would not want an abortion third trimester because of that? Also, the article I provided had a doctor that said he knew of virtually no cases where a woman's like would be in danger third trimester to kill the infant.

Funny, sounds like passing this New York law was completely meaningless. Almost makes you wonder why they ...[text shortened]... never have happened. All I know is that it continues to happen, on what level, we will never know.

As I assumed, you can't point to any actual examples and simply rely on a vague claim that X percentage of women are "sociopaths". That's hardly the basis for reasoned public policy. Of course, this is all pretend anyway; according to your extremist views a 1 minute after fertilization zygote is just as much a human being as a third trimester fetus and you want to call the termination of a pregnancy concerning either as "murder". In that view, I suppose any and all pregnant women who decide to have an abortion are evil "sociopaths".

The purpose of the law has been explained; to codify Roe v. Wade in case the SCOTUS overrules that case. In a sense it changes little now, but it is a protective measure against SCOTUS overreach in the future.

Gosnell was aggressively prosecuted after the raid, the idea that anyone feared retaliation for pushing the case forward is a cinematic fiction in a movie created by far out anti-abortionists. There are much more entertaining movies out there that take such liberties with the facts; I liked the scene in Inglorious Bastards where the two Americans machine gun Hitler in a Paris cinema, but I wouldn't use it as support for my arguments in Debates.

In any event, Gosnell has as much to do with the legality of abortion (an aspect of the fundamental right to bodily self sovereignty) as Djaziri Adam Lotfi has to the legality of driving a car. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_2017_Champs-%C3%89lys%C3%A9es_car_ramming_attack

@no1marauder said
As I assumed, you can't point to any actual examples and simply rely on a vague claim that X percentage of women are "sociopaths". That's hardly the basis for reasoned public policy. Of course, this is all pretend anyway; according to your extremist views a 1 minute after fertilization zygote is just as much a human being as a third trimester fetus and you want to call th ...[text shortened]... f driving a car. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_2017_Champs-%C3%89lys%C3%A9es_car_ramming_attack

I have no idea what you are babbling about here. The movie went out of its way to be factual and was not even preachy against abortion.

The FACT of the matter is, Gosnell was busted with a myriad of health care violations in the 1970's, and the state simply stopped coming round and allowed 30 years of abusing women and infants, mostly minority women. Not even the FBI was interested in his abuses. Guess they were too busy looking for imaginary Russians.

Hollywood refused to produce the movie, and when the case went to court not one reporter came to cover the story.

As for sociopaths, this is an interesting article

https://www.pop.org/many-american-women-felt-pressured-abortions-study-finds/

A significant number of American women who have had an abortion have felt subtle, or even substantial, unwanted pressure to abort, a recent study has found.

The study, published recently in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, found that nearly three-quarters (73.8😵 of women with a history of abortion surveyed admitted that they experienced at least subtle forms of pressure to terminate their pregnancies.

More than half of the women reported that the perceived pressure was great enough to significantly influence their decision to abort. Of the 987 women surveyed, more than half (58.3😵 indicated that they decided to abort in order to make others happy. Nearly 30% of survey respondents admitted that they were afraid that they would lose their partner if they failed to terminate their pregnancy.

Further underlining the fact that choosing abortion is contrary women’s natural instincts, the study also found that two-thirds of the women (66😵 knew in their hearts that abortion was wrong. Many women (67.5😵 said that the decision to terminate their pregnancies was one of the hardest decisions of their lives.

“These findings are alarming,” says Population Research Institute President Steven Mosher. “They suggest that a substantial number of women in America today who supposedly ‘choose’ abortion are actually being pressured into it by their husbands, boyfriends, or family members.”

“If a man tells a woman in so many words that he will leave her if she does not get an abortion, that woman is being denied the right to freely choose her—and her unborn child’s fate. The threat of abandonment is a very strong inducement to the woman not to carry her child to term.”

The study, led by Priscilla K. Coleman, Professor of Human Development and Family Studies at Bowling Green State University, Ohio, included anonymous surveys from 987 women seeking post-abortion counseling services at crisis pregnancy centers nationwide. While the findings are not representative of all women in the U.S. who have had an abortion, they nevertheless reveal a significant real and widespread problem among many post-abortive women in America.

“Over the years, many women have come to me with stories of how they were—blatantly or subtly—coerced into abortion they did not want and will always regret,” says PRI President Steven Mosher. “Kudos to Professor Coleman for her brilliant study, which suggests that the magnitude of the problem is far greater than any of us suspected. We must all do more to help young women in crisis pregnancies.”

Coleman’s study used both quantitative and qualitative analysis to investigate how women perceive their past abortion(s), providing a profound insight into the perduring difficulties that women have in coping with a past abortion. Survey respondents were asked open-ended questions about what they perceived to be the biggest positives and negatives of their abortion decision.

Most women could not note anything positive about their past abortions. More than half of the respondents (53.6😵 indicated no positive response or simply left the question blank. Most of the remaining women in the survey noted that their abortion experience eventually helped them to grow stronger spiritually, providing the impetus for their conversion to the Christian faith or to a deeper faith life. Others noted that it had motivated them to engage in pro-life or crisis pregnancy work.

As far as the negative consequences of their abortion experiences were concerned, many women cited serious symptoms, including symptoms often associated with poor psychological health. Women reported symptoms of depression (14.4😵, guilt (14😵, shame, regret, self-hatred, feelings of worthlessness, feelings of being unworthy of love, drug or alcohol addiction (9😵, low self-esteem, anxiety, and thoughts or attempts of suicide (6.2😵.

These findings are even more striking given that the vast majority of women included in the study were believed to have been psychologically healthy prior to their first abortion. Only 6.6% of women surveyed self-reported having used prescription medication for mental health reasons prior to their first abortion. Following their first abortion, however, over half of the women (51😵 reported using such medication.

Pro-abortion activists have long claimed that abortion empowers women to make decisions about their fertility. But the findings of Professor Coleman’s study indicate that rather than feeling “empowered” by their decision to have an abortion, they were in fact pressured into a decision that was not in line with their values and wants. Worse still, the consequences of their abortions have been detrimental to their psychological and emotional health and well-being.

The findings suggest that coercive treatment of women by pressuring them to choose abortion is widespread and deeply ingrained in many communities across the country. It appears that many young women facing an unplanned pregnancy are not receiving adequate support from the people who matter most in their lives—whether they be parents, family members, boyfriends, or peers—to make decisions that are not only in accord with their conscience and values, but also in the best interest of their physical and psychological well-being.

Pro-abortion activists often frame abortion as a women’s rights issue, claiming that abortion access is necessary for women to have control over their fertility. This, they claim, empowers women to prioritize career, education, or lifestyle goals, evidently over the life of their unborn child. Despite claiming to be pro-woman, however, pro-abortion advocates rarely, if ever, mention the importance that remaining abstinent has in freeing women to pursue their life goals without the negative emotional and psychological drawbacks associated with abortion.

Indeed, research has shown that the fewer non-marital sexual partners a woman has, the less likely she is to have a sexually transmitted disease (STD) or an out-of-wedlock birth, to become a single mother or have an abortion, or to report feeling depressed. In fact, the fewer sexual partners an unmarried woman has, the more likely she is to feel happy and the less likely she is to experience divorce later in life.

Likewise, women who postpone sexual activity are more likely to report feeling happy in life, have fewer sexual partners over their lifetimes, are less likely to be single mothers, are less likely to live in poverty as adults, are more likely to have a stable marriage, and are less likely to have an abortion. Teens who are sexually active are also more likely to attempt suicide than their abstinent peers. High school teens who remain abstinent are more likely to graduate high school and were twice as likely to obtain a 4-year college degree.

A significant number of women cited their partner’s desires as reasons for deciding to undergo abortion. The fact that nearly 30% of women surveyed indicated that they chose abortion to prevent their partners from leaving them is particularly alarming. It is perhaps indicative of wider problems in American culture including the of over-sexualization of modern society, a lack of respect for women, and the breakdown of morality and traditional family structures.

Sadly, it seems that too many men are not willing to respect women enough to make lifestyle decisions in their best interest and are unwilling to take responsibility for the consequences of their own actions, abandoning women to deal with unplanned pregnancies by themselves. Likewise, too many women have abandoned traditional values, giving themselves up without the real commitment that comes with marriage.

“Ignoring these sobering facts, the so-called pro-choice movement continues to treat abortion as a panacea for all of the ills that accompany a hypersexualized society,” Mosher says, “They turn a blind eye to those who not only sexually exploit women but then also coerce women into an abortion that will leave her spirit wounded and in pain.”

Until the life and dignity of each and every person, particularly women and the unborn, are respected and valued, coercive treatment of women who find themselves in unplanned pregnancies will, sadly, continue.

@whodey said
@whodey

So as we see from the article, about 73% of women felt pressured by the Progressive culture of death to have an abortion, even though over 60% felt that abortion was wrong, they did it anyway.

No, they don't:

surveys from 987 women seeking post-abortion counseling services at crisis pregnancy centers nationwide. While the findings are not representative of all women in the U.S. who have had an abortion,


This is a cherry picked sample; of course those seeking counselling at such facilities are going to have opinions at wide variance with what most women think.

In any event, if you want to persuade women it's a "bad" idea to have an abortion, you have my blessing. Just don't try to make it illegal for them to do so.

EDIT: There's little evidence of any widespread problem of women being successfully pressured to have abortions against their will. A representative survey of women who have had abortions (not merely the small percentage who sought counselling afterwards) found:

Why women have abortions

The following categories were chosen by fewer than 0.5 percent of respondents and are not shown:
"Was a victim of rape",
"Husband or partner wants me to have an abortion",
"Parents want me to have an abortion",
"Don’t want people to know I had sex or got pregnant"

https://theconversation.com/who-chooses-abortion-more-women-than-you-might-think-99982

@no1marauder said
No, they don't:

surveys from 987 women seeking post-abortion counseling services at crisis pregnancy centers nationwide. While the findings are not representative of all women in the U.S. who have had an abortion,


This is a cherry picked sample; of course those seeking counselling at such facilities are going to have opinions at wide variance with wh ...[text shortened]... pregnant"

https://theconversation.com/who-chooses-abortion-more-women-than-you-might-think-99982

From one cherry picker to another, eh?

Of course, only you should be believed.

You know, people who sold us Obamacare as not being a lie and then turning round and declaring Hillary told the truth.

Thanks for that.

@whodey said
From one cherry picker to another, eh?

Of course, only you should be believed.

You know, people who sold us Obamacare as not being a lie and then turning round and declaring Hillary told the truth.

Thanks for that.

Your petty attempts at insults will be ignored as will your repeated lies about my positions.

Your article concedes it is an unrepresentative sample; why did you claim it was not?

Article: While the findings are not representative of all women in the U.S. who have had an abortion,

whodey: So as we see from the article, about 73% of women

Did you deliberately lie in the hope no one would notice?

@no1marauder said
Your petty attempts at insults will be ignored as will your repeated lies about my positions.

Your article concedes it is an unrepresentative sample; why did you claim it was not?

Article: While the findings are not representative of all women in the U.S. who have had an abortion,

whodey: So as we see from the article, about 73% of women

Did you deliberately lie in the hope no one would notice?

I tried to warn you about being an apologist for someone as blatantly dishonest and corrupt as Hillary.

I also tried to warn you about being an apologist for Obamacare, now even the Left says its bad since they want a Single payer.

You made your bed, now lie in it dolt.