29 Jul 14
Originally posted by sh76The evidence is not helpful to your suggestion that Hamas is in a position of any power whatever. It is in a position of extreme weakness and confronted by a power that is beyond comparison. However, that is something that can be discussed ad nauseam because the issue of concern is the way the Israeli state is behaving and the blank cheque handed over to Israel by the US. Such power without proper accountability is not tolerable. And it is time people stopped relying on lies and fairy stories and dealt instead with historical reality.
One major power? Yes.
One player that has the "the capacity to determine the outcomes here"? No, I think Hamas has the capacity to determine outcomes.
I don't think there's anything inherent about the ME conflict that precludes peace. I think long term peace was fairly close at Camp David and Taba and that the historical accident of Arafat being there ra ...[text shortened]... me lies with Israel, but Hamas control more of its own destiny than you're giving it credit for.
29 Jul 14
Originally posted by finneganAh, Finny. My main man. Take a breath and see the situation for a minute. So, Hamas is using its own citizens as human shields, and is stashing rockets inside schools, hospitals, and mosques. They are firing those rockets from civilian neighborhoods. They are using the blood of their own citizens - their own children - for photo ops.
Vicious attitudes and despicable values exposed in this thread. It is shameful. There is no valid justification for what is being done to the civilian population of Gaza and to endorse a racist dehumanisation of the victims is beneath contempt.
So just settle down. You're from the Northern Six, aren't you?
29 Jul 14
Originally posted by finneganI like "debunked" when the UN - the UN, of all places - has condemned the tactics of Hamas. This cracks me up.
Oh dear, another of the lies waiting to be refuted. Here we go:This is arguably one of Israel's most insidious claims, because it blames Palestinians for their own death and deprives them of even their victimhood. Israel made the same argument in its war against Lebanon in 2006 and in its war against Palestinians in 2008. Notwithstanding its milita ...[text shortened]... to peace.http://m.thenation.com/article/180783-five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked
Israel has taken heroic measures to avoid loss of Palestinian civilian life. However, Israel fights with a resolve that understandably upsets its enemies. I think what you're really saying is that you don't like war. Ok - nobody does. But when a fight must be fought, to engage your enemy with anything other than devastating force is unspeakably cruel. You are perceived as weak by your enemy and unwilling to fight. The war, therefore, lasts longer and more people actually die.
I certainly believe it is Israel's intent to break the will of Hamas and of Palestinians. Which is as it should be. Israel has taken the measure of its enemy, and understands their determination. This is certainly a difficult conflict, but what alternatives do they have? Palestine certainly has no desire for peace at this moment. Israel has no choice but to pound them, until they break their will to fight.
29 Jul 14
The post that was quoted here has been removedI did read the thread, and simply because Finnegan says it is so does not make it true. I'm sure that there are nuances in the conflict, but I do not include Hamas fighting from civilian population centers as one of them.
I understand that Palestine is an issue that is near and dear to your heart, and that's okay. I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it. There are anti-Semitic rallies taking place all over Europe, all over the United States, Jewish students are being shown pictures of ovens at Auschwitz and being told to get in, American liberals have rediscovered their hatred of Israel and of Jews, so I do hope you'll pardon me if I parrot the unpopular, unsophisticated, non-elitist stance of supporting the only democracy and the only ally of the United States in the region, not to mention the people and religion that form one of the four pillars of Western civilization.
29 Jul 14
Originally posted by quackquackYeah... so, ethnically cleansing the whole region and sticking what's left in a refugee camp (Gaza) is alright?
Actually the solution is simple: stop shooting missiles at Israeli citizens and digging tunnels into their country and they will not have to defend themselves.
Forcing people to live in poverty is alright?
Building walls and fences which divide communities is alright?
Terror flights at night are alright?
Invading and murdering is alright?
And you don't think people will get a little angry?
The solution is not "simple".
The solution is a form of AA (or triple A if you're an American) therapy: Israel has to recognise their behaviour for what it is, before they'll start to get better.
Think of Israel as an abused child.
What behaviour do abused children often inherit? That's right, they themselves become abusers.
And what's the abuse going to do to the Palestinians? Make them more humane? Or do you reckon they'll get psychologically damaged too?
Until Israel understands (and actually feels) that they're murdering children (no matter what reasons they shove down your throat to justify it... they're murdering children), they're condemning all the children in that region to a circle of abusee / abuser.
29 Jul 14
Originally posted by SeitseIt's a debate forum. There is a Spirituality and a Science forum, also a Chess forum. There is not a tireless-repetition-of-the-same-inanities forum but maybe you would put that idea in the Ideas forum. You could then repeat your inanities tirelessly there and leave the Debate forum for people who wish to debate.
You do know that this is a chess internet forum, right? Right?
29 Jul 14
Originally posted by sasquatch672That account is a lie and has been refuted on this forum.
Ah, Finny. My main man. Take a breath and see the situation for a minute. So, Hamas is using its own citizens as human shields, and is stashing rockets inside schools, hospitals, and mosques. They are firing those rockets from civilian neighborhoods. They are using the blood of their own citizens - their own children - for photo ops.
So just settle down. You're from the Northern Six, aren't you?
Originally posted by sasquatch672Your opinion is unchanged but it is not a coherent argument to consistently ignore evidence and repeat without variation arguments that have been refuted. If you lack the ability or the energy to deal with the substance of the arguments that does not make me wrong. It makes me uncontested. It does not make me right either. It makes me uncontested. It means you and your associates are not managing to defend your opinions in serious debate. And this is a "Debates" forum of course, for the avoidance of doubt.
I did read the thread, and simply because Finnegan says it is so does not make it true. I'm sure that there are nuances in the conflict, but I do not include Hamas fighting from civilian population centers as one of them.
I understand that Palestine is an issue that is near and dear to your heart, and that's okay. I respect your opinion, but I di ...[text shortened]... ot to mention the people and religion that form one of the four pillars of Western civilization.
Anti-Semitism has indeed been reported around Europe and beyond in response to these events which is appalling and ought to be a wake-up call to serious people everywhere. But why do you expect others to be any more rational and considered, any better informed, any more constructive in their responses than yourself and your associates? The normal and regrettable response to vicious bigotry is not dissimilar. One does not fight racism with racism and that, tragically, is what is being propagated by the State of Israel.
29 Jul 14
I just want to say, about anti-semitism... two things:
1. You can't be anti-semitic and pro-Palestinian. The Palestinians are, themselves, semitic.
2. I've never, NOT ONCE, met any of these people who shout: "YOU ARE AN ANTI-SEMITE" at any of the anti-facist demonstrations I used to go to.
Hypocrites, the lot of them.