29 Aug 10
Originally posted by EladarOriginally posted by normbenign
Moo.
I theorize that humans for the most part tend to be a herding species. The majority tends to do the same things, right or wrong, like lemmings, or cattle.
There are a relatively small percentage of humans who are leaders, experimenters, predators and loners if you will. They are often the most productive and inventive of our species.
Does normbenign have you down as a leader or as cattle, do you think?
29 Aug 10
Originally posted by EladarIn the worst districts that is an understatement. Grade and promotion fraud are rampant in out education system. Nobody is held back, and dropout rates are high because kids are simply lost. Those that hang in there are a mixture of those who did the work, at least some of it, and those who just attended enough to get a diploma.
Most graduates can't read their diploma? Isn't that a little over the top?
If you want to say it isn't, then perhaps you could provide evidence for your statement.
My son graduated from a magnet school, 2nd in his class, but could not do 4th grade math, and his reading was horrendous. I attended a local community college in the mid 80s in my mid 40s, and the high school grads were really struggling. By far a majority, had to do remedial work in reading and math in their second semester if they were to continue.
29 Aug 10
Originally posted by FMFI try not to make judgements on individuals, as all have the potential to be leaders, inventors, etc. If they fail to use that potential and become lemmings or sheep, it isn't my duty to make up for their lack of initiative or their failure to use their abilities.
Originally posted by normbenign
[b]I theorize that humans for the most part tend to be a herding species. The majority tends to do the same things, right or wrong, like lemmings, or cattle.
There are a relatively small percentage of humans who are leaders, experimenters, predators and loners if you will. They are often the most productive and inven ...[text shortened]... ive of our species.
Does normbenign have you down as a leader or as cattle, do you think?[/b]
29 Aug 10
Originally posted by badmoonSame old collectivist tripe. Make as many people as possible think they are helpless, and that their only hope is that the government take care of them. And the governement will do just that, keep them in poverty and dependency for life.
Same old conservative GOP crap. And the followers are so blind to it. GOP - disenfranchise those who need help so to secure the elite power control.
29 Aug 10
Originally posted by normbenignYour son's education was your responsibility.
In the worst districts that is an understatement. Grade and promotion fraud are rampant in out education system. Nobody is held back, and dropout rates are high because kids are simply lost. Those that hang in there are a mixture of those who did the work, at least some of it, and those who just attended enough to get a diploma.
My son graduated fro ...[text shortened]... , had to do remedial work in reading and math in their second semester if they were to continue.
Social promotion is an issue, you'll get no argument from me over that. The problem of kids dropping out has more to do with the failure of parents than the failure of schools. If parents are willing to put forth the effort to get the extra help when extra help is needed (or help tutor the kid themselves) then things would be much better.
If you take the time to think about it you'd realize that schools are in a no win situation.
What my child failed that course? My child doesn't graduate? You are evil.
What my child graduated and didn't know what he as supposed to know?
Hold the kid back or pass him through, either way the school loses.
30 Aug 10
Originally posted by Eladar"Your son's education was your responsibility."
Your son's education was your responsibility.
Social promotion is an issue, you'll get no argument from me over that. The problem of kids dropping out has more to do with the failure of parents than the failure of schools. If parents are willing to put forth the effort to get the extra help when extra help is needed (or help tutor the kid themselves) th ...[text shortened]... as supposed to know?
Hold the kid back or pass him through, either way the school loses.
Yes, and I thought at the time that paying taxes was doing my part supporting public education to do that. I saw to it that the situation was corrected because when he worked for me, poor math cost me money.
Social promotion, grade fraud, and total lack of discipline are almost the entire story, but poor parenting is indeed a factor. A couple of weeks ago I met a teacher who had just left the Boston system, his job being in a "disciplinary school" where all the kids had behavioural problems. He quit out of frustration that no discipline was allowed, and the kids knew it. You could not even speak in a harsh tone.
I understand the no win situation the schools are in but they created the problem.
30 Aug 10
Originally posted by normbenignCertainly the U.S. government should ensure its public education meets certain quality standards, but what does that have to do with the present debate?
We trail many developing countries in higher education. Most of our secondary school graduates can't read their diploma, and can't make in a community college. The United States is far from rich, and will be getting poorer if it doesn't get it's house in order.
30 Aug 10
1 edit
Originally posted by normbenignyes -- poor parenting is a major factor here -- one the of the parents' biggest responsibilities is to know what's going on at the school their child is in -- and if there's a major problem with discipline, or grade inflation, or low standards, or whatever, those parents need to make their presence known LOUDLY at every school board meeting and every school board election until the school is being run properly.
"Your son's education was your responsibility."
Yes, and I thought at the time that paying taxes was doing my part supporting public education to do that. I saw to it that the situation was corrected because when he worked for me, poor math cost me money.
Social promotion, grade fraud, and total lack of discipline are almost the entire story, but p tone.
I understand the no win situation the schools are in but they created the problem.
If the parents don't care enough to speak up, then their kids will get the kind of education you get when parents don't care enough to speak up.
30 Aug 10
1 edit
Originally posted by MelanerpesMy parents spent close to zero hours investigating the standard of education at my high school but I graduated from it speaking four languages (to varying degrees) and with a good enough standard in mathematics to study physics in university. You can save parents a lot of time by simply enforcing a minimum standard and banning grade inflation.
yes -- poor parenting is a major factor here -- one the of the parents' biggest responsibilities is to know what's going on at the school their child is in -- and if there's a major problem with discipline, or grade inflation, or low standards, or whatever, those parents need to make their presence known LOUDLY at every school board meeting and every scho eir kids will get the kind of education you get when parents don't care enough to speak up.
30 Aug 10
Originally posted by KazetNagorraAnd in your instance, the folks in charge were running the school properly. Perhaps your parents never had reason to investigate.
My parents spent close to zero hours investigating the standard of education at my high school but I graduated from it speaking four languages (to varying degrees) and with a good enough standard in mathematics to study physics in university. You can save parents a lot of time by simply enforcing a minimum standard and banning grade inflation.
But what would have happened had the standards at your school been horrible? Would your parents have done nothing in reponse? Or would they have been outraged and taken some kind of action?
30 Aug 10
Originally posted by KazetNagorraLucky you - and I mean that, your education system is excellent. But if you knew the system to be flawed - with poor discipline, low standards, grade inflation, students graduating with sub-standard maths or literacy skills, etc - as seems to be the case in much of the US, it would surely be grossly irresponsible not to take enough of an interest during your child's education to attempt to remedy the situation in some way, rather than assuming (hoping against the evidence, even) that simply paying one's taxes would be enough, and then - despite having known much of the education system is flawed - complaining about the outcome which was surely entirely predictable.
My parents spent close to zero hours investigating the standard of education at my high school but I graduated from it speaking four languages (to varying degrees) and with a good enough standard in mathematics to study physics in university. You can save parents a lot of time by simply enforcing a minimum standard and banning grade inflation.
Perhaps the best remedial action for the US would be enforcing a minimum standard and banning grade inflation, but until that happens, it behoves parents to take more of an interest.
30 Aug 10
Originally posted by MelanerpesStandards at schools vary, obviously, but if schools perform very poorly they are simply shut down. There is a government agency in charge of enforcing schools meet the criteria. The system isn't perfect, and the curriculum itself could use some tweaking, but it works alright in practise.
And in your instance, the folks in charge were running the school properly. Perhaps your parents never had reason to investigate.
But what would have happened had the standards at your school been horrible? Would your parents have done nothing in reponse? Or would they have been outraged and taken some kind of action?