Standards for viability need reconsideration .....

Originally posted by corp1131
But according to your definition, mitochondria are not part of our bodies. they are present within us but do not share our DNA, they are a simple organism that lives within our cells, without which we would find life somewhat tricky. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondria)

I don't want to get drawn into a debate about when life begins, I think that ...[text shortened]... I certainly think a just fertilised egg is as much a part of a woman's body as any other cell.

We're talking about beings, in particular human beings, who can be identified with the help of their DNA structure. Within the scope of the way you are reasoning you could also claim that the zygote also is a part of the father's body which now dwells inside the mother's body.

"I don't want to get drawn into a debate about when life begins, ... "

I assume you mean a debate about when the life of a human being begins, because that's what is relevant in the abortion debate. The question "when life begins" is a quite different matter.

" .... but I certainly think a just fertilised egg is as much a part of a woman's body as any other cell. "

Science does not agree with you.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
No. One cannot negotiate on a limit if one thinks, as I do, that a human being has the Right to Life from the moment of conception.

My thread is about the criterium of viability in determining the moral permissibility of performimg abortion. We can conclude that this criterium, advocated by no1marauder on this site, is an arbitrary one, depending on the progress of science rather than on thorough and well founded moral reasoning.

Well, at the very least I feel that the maximum abortion limit should be based on the viability science shows, but two or three weeks earlier just to be sure.
Of course this excluding important circumstances - i.e. mother's life is at risk.
Now that was just the maximum, personally I don't really having any moral reasons to lower this any further, so we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Originally posted by wib
You're wasting your time corp. Ivan believes life begins at conception. The very instant one sperm meets an egg. He can't shake that Catholic dogma.

You may not want to be drawn into a debate about when life begins, but that is exactly what every abortion argument comes down to.

There isn't such a Catholic dogma. We're talking about what science tells us.

At conception a human life, a human being starts. When life starts that's, as I said before, quite another matter.

Do you have any ideas about what starts at conception if it is not a human being which comes into existence?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
That's not a Catholic dogma. This is about what science tells us.

At conception a human life starts. When life starts that's, as I said before, quite another matter.

Do you have any ideas about what starts at conception instead if it is not a human being ?

If there is no mind there is no person. The law recognises people, not cells.

Originally posted by mrstabby
If there is no mind there is no person. The law recognises people, not cells.

When does the mind, and together with this, the human person, come into existence ?


... and by the way, do you make a difference between a human being and a human person ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
When does the mind, and together with this, the human person, come into existence ?


... and by the way, do you make a difference between a human being and a human person ?

When the brain begins experiencing reality. I'd say that'd be around when they are capable of experiencing and remembering (at least short term) events. The ability to experience pain may be a good indicator of this, but I'd be open to other traits of consciousness as definitive.
A human being is a living biological organism. This extends from conception to death. A human person has a personality equipped with traits such as self awareness the ability to think and experience emotion. This extends from when the human being is conscious and sentient.

Originally posted by mrstabby
When the brain begins experiencing reality. I'd say that'd be around when they are capable of experiencing and remembering (at least short term) events. The ability to experience pain may be a good indicator of this, but I'd be open to other traits of consciousness as definitive.
A human being is a living biological organism. This extends from conceptio ...[text shortened]... nk and experience emotion. This extends from when the human being is conscious and sentient.

"A human being is a living biological organism. This extends from conception to death."

We agree on that one.

"When the brain begins experiencing reality. I'd say that'd be around when they are capable of experiencing and remembering (at least short term) events. The ability to experience pain may be a good indicator of this, but I'd be open to other traits of consciousness as definitive. ( .............) A human person has a personality equipped with traits such as self awareness the ability to think and experience emotion. This extends from when the human being is conscious and sentient."

Why is it necessary for a human being to be equipped with these capacities of being able to experience reality by means of a brain in order to be a person with the Right to Life ?

At what age dou you think a human being becomes a person with the Right to Life in the context of your reasoning ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]"A human being is a living biological organism. This extends from conception to death."

We agree on that one.

"When the brain begins experiencing reality. I'd say that'd be around when they are capable of experiencing and remembering (at least short term) events. The ability to experience pain may be a good indicator of this, but I'd be op ...[text shortened]... a human being becomes a person with the Right to Life in the context of your reasoning ?

Without these capacities they are not yet a person, even if they have the potential to become so in the future. They are biologically human, but not psychologically.
Week 12 may be a little late for abortions, as brain waves are detectable around week 6. I'm undecided as to which of these should be set as a deadline.
When the baby is still an embryo there is little semblance to a human with thoughts and feelings, which is what we should be protecting.