The American Mess

Originally posted by Hugh Glass
To President Obama and all 535 voting members of the Legislature,


It is now official you are ALL corrupt morons:
* The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775. You have had 234 years to get it right and it is broke.
* Social Securitywas established in 1935. You have had 74 years to get it right and it is broke.
* Fannie Mae was established ...[text shortened]... irst determine, just how success can be measured, what bench mark do we set for health care?

you could play this game with pretty much every part of the private sector too.

*the airline industry has been around for almost a century, and now its a complete mess.
*the banking industry has been around for centuries, and now the system is broke.
*the food and restraurant industry has been around for centuries, and now it's making everyone obese.
*the energy and chemical industries have left us with polluted air and a whole host of toxic waste sites.
*the housing and auto industries speak for themselves
*the entertainment industry is awash in sex, drugs, and violence
*the American economy is now a total disaster from which we will never recover.

If you just focus only one bad thing and use that to pronounce the whole thing a failure, you could end up declaring that absolutely NOTHING that humanity has ever done was a "success".

Originally posted by normbenign
Requiring the purchase of insurance. Fines for companies which drop health care. Requiring insurers to cover pre existing conditions.

If the fine is $1000, and the coverage is $2000, why would anyone buy insurance? Wait until you are sick and then pay the higher amount. Classical adverse selection or moral risk.

How exactly will requiring tens of millions of people to buy their product "kill off the private health insurance industry"?

I guarantee you that the vast majority of people presently not covered will buy health insurance as soon as possible using the federal subsidies.

sidiesOriginally posted by no1marauder
How exactly will requiring tens of millions of people to buy their product "kill off the private health insurance industry"?

I guarantee you that the vast majority of people presently not covered will buy health insurance as soon as possible using the federal subsidies.

And the federal subsidies is where we have an issue.
Does streamlining the whole medical system save enough money to pay for 30 million people without insurance? I wonder where the 30 million figure came from anyway?
A whole bunch of this plan is backloaded but pay up front.
It's a wait and see situation.
I'd like to see our power grid streamlined next....... move to the next problem.
Get people back to work, generate revenues, pay for things,, a concept that works.

Originally posted by Hugh Glass
And the federal subsidies is where we have an issue.
Does streamlining the whole medical system save enough money to pay for 30 million people without insurance? I wonder where the 30 million figure came from anyway?
A whole bunch of this plan is backloaded but pay up front.
It's a wait and see situation.
I'd like to see our power grid streamlined nex ...[text shortened]... t problem.
Get people back to work, generate revenues, pay for things,, a concept that works.

I gotta say I agree with everything you said.

Originally posted by badmoon
I gotta say I agree with everything you said.

You know, I got a good slap in the face when I was forced into early retirement by a disability.... seeing the backlog of people waiting to see if they could be approved, having to hire a lawyer to make sure everything was in order. Then the 6 month wait even after it's approved, and a year before medicare kicks in...
I mean, if I had not had savings, and long term disability, I would have lost my home, and 38 years worth of work effort.
So I feel for those who do not have health care insurance, I also know the pain of those tangled up in the S.S. system.
I went on disability, and started paying COBRA in august 2008. 1 month later, and I could have been eligible for help, and only paid 35 % of the COBRA premium.
That premium was 1000.00 a month, until Jan. 2009, then it jumped to 1800.00. No vision, no dental, now the kids had to be dropped...
So i am saying, yes I see the need for reform too...... I just don't see who will pay for this??
Maybe I'm just blind.

Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
OK, so you're saying the Republican's idea for an individual mandate to purchase health insurance is the road to single payer?

I was quite clear. It is the mandate to buy insurance under threat of government punishment which isn't a Republican or free market idea. It is pure statism.

The free market plan is to leave people free to choose insurance, and insurance companies free to sell it as they see fit.

You do understand that nobody makes money pricing any product out of the reach of the consumer?

Originally posted by no1marauder
All nonsense, but believed in like some twisted religion by right wing nuts. Keep repeating your loony shibboleths over and over again; maybe you'll convince yourself.

"All nonsense," But not a single word of sense to refute the nonsense?

"but believed in like some twisted religion by right wing nuts." The usual refuge of left wing extremists when they lack a single rational thought is to call names. It is a sign the argument has been won.

Try to focus on the thread, although given the quality of your arguments so far that could prove difficult. Why would you think that this government program will work any better than the other mostly left wing collectivist programs of the past have?

Originally posted by Melanerpes
you could play this game with pretty much every part of the private sector too.

*the airline industry has been around for almost a century, and now its a complete mess.
*the banking industry has been around for centuries, and now the system is broke.
*the food and restraurant industry has been around for centuries, and now it's making everyone obese. ...[text shortened]... u could end up declaring that absolutely NOTHING that humanity has ever done was a "success".

Most of the "failures" you list in the private sector involve significant interference in their operations by governments.

Originally posted by no1marauder
How exactly will requiring tens of millions of people to buy their product "kill off the private health insurance industry"?

I guarantee you that the vast majority of people presently not covered will buy health insurance as soon as possible using the federal subsidies.

I just told you why, and either english is not your first language, you can't read any language, or you intentionally ignored what I wrote and you quoted.

In any case, if you have nothing logical or factual to add.

Let's try once again extra slowly, using fire insurance as an example. If a preexisting condition like your house is already on fire didn't prevent you from getting insurance, then why would you ever buy it ahead of time? Even under the threat of government fines, if the fines are cheaper than premiums, you will pay the fines, and get the "insurance" when you need it, that is when there is already a claim.

Insurance can't exist with that type of "moral hazard" or " adverse selection". Google those two terms, and do some reading, and get back to me.

Originally posted by Hugh Glass
And the federal subsidies is where we have an issue.
Does streamlining the whole medical system save enough money to pay for 30 million people without insurance? I wonder where the 30 million figure came from anyway?
A whole bunch of this plan is backloaded but pay up front.
It's a wait and see situation.
I'd like to see our power grid streamlined nex ...[text shortened]... t problem.
Get people back to work, generate revenues, pay for things,, a concept that works.

Are they kidding Hugh? You promise 30 million people insurance, promise to eliminate underwriting, and we're to believe that this is going to save money?

Where do they find anyone who believes this stuff?

The American mess is that we have roughly have the people who believe that they can get freebies from government that somebody else will pay for, and the other 50% who do the paying. The entitlement receivers may at this point be way more than 50%.

Originally posted by normbenign
Most of the "failures" you list in the private sector involve significant interference in their operations by governments.

but I'm not arguing that any of these private sectors has actually been a failure.

I'm just saying that if all you do is focus on a couple flaws, you could make the argument that EVERY sector in the US, both public and private has been an absolute and total failure.

And yet, big government and all, it seems like very few citizens of this country wants to leave. Indeed, the big problem is the hoards of people from other countries who want to come live here. So amidst all this failure, someone's doing something right.

Originally posted by normbenign
Are they kidding Hugh? You promise 30 million people insurance, promise to eliminate underwriting, and we're to believe that this is going to save money?

Where do they find anyone who believes this stuff?

The American mess is that we have roughly have the people who believe that they can get freebies from government that somebody else will pay fo ...[text shortened]... other 50% who do the paying. The entitlement receivers may at this point be way more than 50%.

Norm, I'm with you. I don't think streamlining the medical system will pay for this bundle......
Next up on the agenda is??

Originally posted by Melanerpes
but I'm not arguing that any of these private sectors has actually been a failure.

I'm just saying that if all you do is focus on a couple flaws, you could make the argument that EVERY sector in the US, both public and private has been an absolute and total failure.

And yet, big government and all, it seems like very few citizens of this country wan ...[text shortened]... ries who want to come live here. So amidst all this failure, someone's doing something right.

"I'm not arguing that any of these private sectors has actually been a failure."

Can you argue that all or most of these government programs aren't?

Should we be looking for more projects for government to work on, or paring down and limiting those already in deep trouble?

"And yet, big government and all, it seems like very few citizens of this country wants to leave."

Fair point made. This tells us with all our warts we are still the preferred destination in the world. Could we be even better if we stuck to our founding principles of limited government?

Originally posted by normbenign
"I'm not arguing that any of these private sectors has actually been a failure."

Can you argue that all or most of these government programs aren't?

Should we be looking for more projects for government to work on, or paring down and limiting those already in deep trouble?

"And yet, big government and all, it seems like very few citizens of this ld. Could we be even better if we stuck to our founding principles of limited government?

"I'm not arguing that any of these private sectors has actually been a failure."
Can you argue that all or most of these government programs aren't?

Yes.

If these programs were failures, there would be widespread calls to eliminate or totally change the way we run programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, national defense, police, and education. And almost everyone would agree that none of these things are perfect. And yet, no one has been able to generate widespread support for any plan to radically change the way these programs operate. Not even the GOP. Not even the Tea Party Movement.

At most, you can get a lot of people angry at "big government" in the abstract, and of course, lots of people like the idea of a tax cut.

One of the main reasons why the current healthcare reforms got passed is because the private health insurance system HAS been a failure - or at least enough of a failure to generate the support needed to successfully promote the current reforms.

Obviously, there are plenty of things that do need to be addressed in all areas of government. Getting the budgets under control is one of them. Decisions will need to be made on cutting certain things and raising taxes on other things.

Originally posted by Melanerpes
[b]"I'm not arguing that any of these private sectors has actually been a failure."
Can you argue that all or most of these government programs aren't?

Yes.

If these programs were failures, there would be widespread calls to eliminate or totally change the way we run programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, national defense, police, a ...[text shortened]... ecisions will need to be made on cutting certain things and raising taxes on other things.[/b]

I'm curious about your opinion on illegals?
1. How much do they tax our current system, not only in the medical fields, but also education?
2. Do our tax dollars get spent on people who are here illegally?
3. If so, what is the remedy?
My opinion, is the rules of God over rule the laws of man. So we take care of our brothers.