The change in the face of Islam

Originally posted by whodey
I wonder, who here disagrees with this assessment? Is Islam not unique in this regard? I know of many liberal interpretations of the Bible in Christiandom but not with the Quran in the world of Islam.

(Sigh) Do you ever bother to read anything but what right wing Christians spew out?

Here's something I found after going through all the bother of googling "liberal Muslims" (try it):

http://islamlib.com/en/aboutus.php

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
You could say it is an (over) reaction to Western imperialism. What does that mean though?

I believe he is saying that Western policy within the Middle East and the world is oppressing those within the world of Islam. Therefore the natural reaction is to fight back. This has, in turn, opened the door to fundamentalism because fundamentalism embraces the teachings of Muhammad in regards to jihad that speaks about initiating violence towards their percieved oppressors. It is more or less a justification for violence by blaming the West as being the spark for such behavior. The frightening aspect to this line of thinking, however, is that one need only to percieve themselves as being "oppressed" in order to being justified in initiating violence. If I took this attitude against my perceived oppressors I too would have a world of blood on my hands as do many of my Islamic fundamentalist counterparts.

Originally posted by no1marauder
(Sigh) Do you ever bother to read anything but what right wing Christians spew out?

Here's something I found after going through all the bother of googling "liberal Muslims" (try it):

http://islamlib.com/en/aboutus.php

Thanks for sharing the link, however, do you really feel the majority of Muslims fall under such liberal sway?

Originally posted by whodey
Thanks for sharing the link, however, do you really feel the majority of Muslims fall under such liberal sway?

Stop moving the goalposts. Do you believe that most Christian sects liberally interpret Scripture?

whodey: Is Islam not unique in this regard? I know of many liberal interpretations of the Bible in Christiandom but not with the Quran in the world of Islam.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
The Crusades, western imperialism and aggressive Zionism.

I think you are confusing some issues here. What I am talking about is religion in particular and not about affairs of the state. Unless you had not noticed, the Western powers, as is the Zionist state, are both secular powers. All nations are imperialistic in the sense that they tend to seek to enhance their political power within the world. Human nature dictates that we do so. However, it is only the world of Islam who does not distinguish between the self seeking affairs of men and religion. For them, the affairs of the state and religion are one in the same much like the Crusades you mentioned in ancient times. My question is why does it seem that the Christian and Islamic worlds have flip flopped. Christiandom was once intolerant of other religions and persecuted Jews and Muslim alike and let the Pope rule and reign over them while inquisitions stamped out scientific and intellectual pursuits. Thier Islamic counterparts, on the other hand, embraced those of different faiths and sought intellectual enlightenment. Now it seems as though the Islamic world has taken the Crusader mind set and feels as though the world must be conquered by force in the name of God. Now the Islamic world holds inquisitions in regard to any thought that they percieve to contradict the Quran. Those that are viewed as heretical are then threatened with almost certain death or excommunication as were those held during the inquisitions during the Dark Ages. Now the Western powers seem to be the most tolerant towards the various faiths of the world and it is there that intellectual freedom seems to exists.

Originally posted by whodey
I think you are confusing some issues here. What I am talking about is religion in particular and not about affairs of the state. Unless you had not noticed, the Western powers, as is the Zionist state, are both secular powers. All nations are imperialistic in the sense that they tend to seek to enhance their political power within the world. Human nature ...[text shortened]... ards the various faiths of the world and it is there that intellectual freedom seems to exists.

Western tolerance; are you serious?? What a wonderful brainwashing machine they must have used on you!

Originally posted by no1marauder
Stop moving the goalposts. Do you believe that most Christian sects liberally interpret Scripture?

whodey: Is Islam not unique in this regard? I know of many liberal interpretations of the Bible in Christiandom but not with the Quran in the world of Islam.

From my experience it seems as though many Christians, if not most, view the Bible as more figurative than literal. It has also been my experience that most Muslims I have met view the Quran as more literal than figurative.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Western tolerance; are you serious?? What a wonderful brainwashing machine they must have used on you!

Are you free to think and say as you wish? If not, how are you being stopped? Are you kicked out of a particular Western country simply because you are not a particlar religion? You cannot so much as visit Mecca unless you claim to be a Muslim. What other Western city has such restrictions?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Due to the source of that exerpt, I strongly suspect the author of heavy bias. I recommend everyone keep in mind that this was published by

"Study to Answer.Net
A Resource for a Reasoned, Respectful, and Ready Defence of the Christian Faith"

Well what do you think?

Suppose you were from Saudi Arabia, and grew up being taught that infidels were "unclean". So "unclean" in fact that it was not considered proper to even touch an infidel even for a handshake.

Meanwhile, after billions and billions of dollars coming in due to oil sales, over a whole generation Saudi Arabia exports almost nothing other than oil. The country has contributed virtually nothing technologically to the world in the last one hundred years.

Tell us how you think this affects the psyche of the average Saudi Arabian? And how are you so certain this does not contribute to a sense of resentment toward the west?

I for one think I would be tempted to resent the west if I were a middle eastern Muslim right now.

Originally posted by whodey
I wonder, who here disagrees with this assessment? Is Islam not unique in this regard? I know of many liberal interpretations of the Bible in Christiandom but not with the Quran in the world of Islam.

Quite a lot of people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_interpretation_of_the_Qur'an

Originally posted by whodey
After debating in some other threads about Islamic fundamentalism I have come to realize some things. Islam appears to have changed significantly from its original roots. It was not always a religion of fundamentalism and fanaticism. In fact, the Islamic world was once a beakon of intellectual thought during the Dark Ages.

http://www.time.com/time/europ ...[text shortened]... wards other religions and where did the persuit of knowledge and intellectual thought disappear?

I remember seeing a documentary about the development of the modern kingdom of Saudi Arabia that talked quite a lot about the growth of the particular branch of Islam called Wahabism (spelling?), and how much influence it now has in that country.

I wish I could remember what the documentary was called, as it's very relevant to your question. As I understand it, what we tend to describe as fundamentalist and fanatical is very often derived from that particular sect, which has a great deal of money behind it. Wahabis are in a position to fund schools/madrassars that take the best and the brightest from the countries they are established in, because they CAN offer a much better level of education. But the philosophy that comes with the education is the problem.

Another program (or maybe it was the same one?) had a very memorable segment on the Comoros Islands. It even had an interview with the leader of the country, almost pleading with Westerners to provide funding to help the moderate, government-run schools to compete with the radicals.

Anyway, the main point of that was to say that an investigation of Wahabism might lead you to some answers about how Islam became radicalised.

Originally posted by orfeo
Anyway, the main point of that was to say that an investigation of Wahabism might lead you to some answers about how Islam became radicalised.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Quite a lot of people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_interpretation_of_the_Qur'an

I wonder if the fundamentalists view these Muslims as infidels.

Originally posted by whodey
I wonder if the fundamentalists view these Muslims as infidels.

Sufis have been regarded as heretics in the past and are currently coming under pressure in Iran, I think. In my opinion they represent the best that Islam has to offer.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Sufis have been regarded as heretics in the past and are currently coming under pressure in Iran, I think. In my opinion they represent the best that Islam has to offer.

So the Sufis are now subjected to inquistion like judgements much men such as Martin Luther and Galileo. I suppose these inquisition like witch hunts are inevitable via a theocracy of some kind. Perhaps this is the main cause of such preceedings. Politics is a dirty business and will tant anything that comes into contact with it. The problem is, however, is that those who are usually on the side of truth are not the ones who are prone to blood shed and violence. Therefore they are oppressed and silenced to a large degree. Perhaps this is why the Muslim world is silent in regards to fundamentalist teachings regarding jihad. I wonder what Mohummad would say about such oppression?