Three Magazines

Originally posted by rwingett
The fact is that our present course is unsustainable. We can either make substantive changes voluntarily, or they will be forced upon us.

I fully agree. I just think that you are using the wrong methods to get there. I also do not think you really recognize the problems and that is partly why you keep suggesting the wrong solutions.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I fully agree. I just think that you are using the wrong methods to get there. I also do not think you really recognize the problems and that is partly why you keep suggesting the wrong solutions.

Well, needless to say, I think exactly the same about your methods and solutions. They amount to little more than an ineffectual tinkering around the margins.

Originally posted by rwingett
Well, needless to say, I think exactly the same about your methods and solutions. They amount to little more than an ineffectual tinkering around the margins.

I don't recall ever giving any methods and solutions. I wasn't even aware that I had any. If I did, I might be working on solving the problems instead of chatting about it on an internet forum.

[edit]
I am Zambian, so I didn't understand your Bastille reference. Did he win?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't recall ever giving any methods and solutions. I wasn't even aware that I had any. If I did, I might be working on solving the problems instead of chatting about it on an internet forum.

You've defended Monsanto and industrialized agriculture in the past, for example. You've defended a hierarchical implementation of capital intensive projects, just as all engineers are trained to do. So you are clearly defending certain methods and solutions. Your claim to the contrary is more than a little disingenuous.

Originally posted by rwingett
You've defended Monsanto and industrialized agriculture in the past, for example.

I don't recall defending Monsanto. But if I did, I am sure I was justified.

You've defended a hierarchical implementation of capital intensive projects, just as all engineers are trained to do. So you are clearly defending certain methods and solutions. Your claim to the contrary is more than a little disingenuous.
OK, I see you are taking a much broader view than I intended. OK, I will admit that I favour economies of scale.
But I think you misunderstood what I said was the problem. The problem is not that there are no methods of living sustainably, the problem is getting people to actually do so.
I for example believe that for the earth to be sustainable with a population of 10 billion, we need to have more people live in cities in very high density. You seem more concerned about small farmers, whereas there simply isn't enough land on earth for most people to be small farmers. In fact less than 10% of the population could sustainably be small farmers.
But how do we get people to build more high rise buildings? How do we get people into the cities? I do not have the solutions.
I do know that 'buy local' is not one of them.
I also know that proposing ZERO growth is fine for you rich people, but would be unconscionable to impose on the poor. What we need is a rebalancing with the rich getting poorer and the poor getting richer.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't recall defending Monsanto. But if I did, I am sure I was justified.

[b]You've defended a hierarchical implementation of capital intensive projects, just as all engineers are trained to do. So you are clearly defending certain methods and solutions. Your claim to the contrary is more than a little disingenuous.
OK, I see you are taking a mu ...[text shortened]... or. What we need is a rebalancing with the rich getting poorer and the poor getting richer.[/b]

My primary concern is to empower local communities to reclaim their sovereignty. To arrange things so they are not merely pawns to be used by bankers and multinational corporations in their game of global casino capitalism. Your top heavy, high tech, capital intensive solutions tend to work contrary to that goal.

The number one thing that needs to be changed is agriculture. Communities which disassociate themselves from the production of their own food inevitably surrender an enormous amount of their sovereignty to corporate interests. Agriculture needs to be re-localized, not necessarily as small family farms, but as locally owned farming cooperatives (as in the town of Marinaleda, in the 'One Town in Spain' thread). You can make the population density of such cooperatives whatever you think it needs to be. But if we don't drastically alter our farming practices, then it won't matter where you put all the people, because the bulk of them are going to be dead anyway.

I fully agree that the western countries need to drastically reduce their carbon footprint. New metrics for success, which involve simple living, appropriate technology, and a rejection of consumer culture (as espoused by my three magazines above) would go a long way toward achieving that.

Originally posted by rwingett
The number one thing that needs to be changed is agriculture. Communities which disassociate themselves from the production of their own food inevitably surrender an enormous amount of their sovereignty to corporate interests. Agriculture needs to be re-localized, not necessarily as small family farms, but as locally owned farming cooperatives (as in the to ...[text shortened]... t matter where you put all the people, because the bulk of them are going to be dead anyway.

It sounds to me like you simply want community ownership, which I fully agree with. But I do not agree that community ownership has to dispense with the economies of scale.
I also think that the whole focus on farming doesn't make a lot of sense considering that only a tiny proportion of the worlds population are actually farmers. Although community ownership of farms might help to ensure farming is done in the communities interests, the vast majority of issues faced by communities will have nothing to do with farming.
My biggest concern however is that local democracy of that nature actually leads to inequality regionally. It may benefit the lucky few living on good farming land, but the rest of us will suffer.

Originally posted by rwingett
Maybe I should move to New Zealand.

Doesn't Wajoma live there?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't recall ever giving any methods and solutions. I wasn't even aware that I had any. If I did, I might be working on solving the problems instead of chatting about it on an internet forum.

[edit]
I am Zambian, so I didn't understand your Bastille reference. Did he win?

The Storming of the Bastille was an event in the French Revolution where the mobs broke into a fortress prison. The King ended up being executed.