12 Dec 12
Originally posted by Bosse de NageAll hierarchical organizations fall prey to ossification that erodes the democratic mechanisms. The only remedy is continual revolution.
Unions are as archaic as the nation state. The system is vulnerable to abuse: bosses that farm their workers and collaborate with the enemy ... Talk about scabs. A better way of protecting workers' rights has to be found.
12 Dec 12
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Originally posted by spruce112358Trying to give up smoking is an aspect of jihad.
Continual tension between a multitude of viewpoints under the same rules is healthy.
Continual wars to change the rules to benefit one viewpoint over the other is destructive.
C'mon, read on up about it.
'Continual revolution' is also the Big Mahayana Wheel.
12 Dec 12
Originally posted by SoothfastWhat is archaic is appointed rather than elected leaders.
All hierarchical organizations fall prey to ossification that erodes the democratic mechanisms. The only remedy is continual revolution.
Ossification occurs when there are no term limits -- but term limits are unnecessary if incumbency carries no advantage.
There are many remedies before revolution is unnecessary.
12 Dec 12
Originally posted by quackquackI don't think you understand the difference between money and resources.
Of course money is a limited resource and if we pay one set of workers more than we need to we have less money for other things projects we want.
Hint: you can trade resources without money. But money without resources is worthless.
12 Dec 12
Originally posted by Bosse de NageFutures are better than money.
I don't think you understand the difference between money and resources.
Hint: you can trade resources without money. But money without resources is worthless.
Which would you rather have -- $4.25 or a contract for a future latte at Starbucks?
12 Dec 12
Originally posted by sh76Did you even stop to consider the example of Mondragon's cooperative bank (Caja Laboral) that I mentioned? The purpose for their existence is not to maximize profits, but to help foster the start up of other cooperatives. And it has been very successful in that regard.
No bank will give a large loan to a startups without any personal guarantees.
In any case, while there may be examples of successful worker owned companies, in most cases, companies exist because somebody had the guts and the foresight to take the financial and personal risk to start it up for the possibility of earning a profit in the end.
Without the p ...[text shortened]... to start a risky new business? It may work sometimes, but many fewer businesses will be started.
It may be that fewer businesses will be started, but fewer will also go bankrupt. Workers, after all, won't save a few greasy dimes by putting themselves out of work. It may not even be true that fewer businesses will be started. Mondragon has expanded into quite a large number of industries.
I know that Mondragon is completely outside your experience, but you're going to at least have to acknowledge its existence if you want to talk in a meaningful way about the challenges facing cooperative businesses. It's a whole different paradigm that does not necessarily follow the rules of your standard business models.
12 Dec 12
Originally posted by sasquatch672One of the big attractions of cooperative industries is that they're rooted within the community they operate within. They don't ship themselves overseas because labor is not seen as an externality to be minimized at all costs. Thus they are very stable enterprises as seen by the example of the Mondragon cooperatives. Your ossified ideology simply does not apply.
Your implied indictment of capitalists and capitalism is noted. However, I think you're failing to consider the very real fact that in an increasingly mobile world, capital is more able to flow freely, and into investments, businesses, and factories that offer an optimized return for investors. In other words: it is not ideologically coherent to simu ...[text shortened]... he inevitable result is decline of their influence, standard of living, and quality of life.