01 May 05
Originally posted by ColettiCheck out this site:
BTW - I can't remember from biology the different levels of classifications in living things - I just remembered kingdoms, and species, but I know there are several levels in between and after. I tried to find of reference on the web and can't find any old biology textbooks around the house. Do you recall them? It's probably not relevant but I it's bugging me not remembering.
http://www.tigerhomes.org/animal/curriculums/lemurs-4.cfm
01 May 05
Originally posted by steerpikeI don't really know what the limits would be.
If speciation can occur - what are the limits?
I walk down a beach and I see two types of small seagulls - black and red billed. I also see the much larger black backed gull. Could all of these have been once a single species?...
At what point do you decide which are evolved and which created?
I couldn't say for sure how many of the original created species are around. And it's possible some evolved into new species. I don't think I'd go so far as say that fish evolved into mammals - but it's possible that one species of bird divided into several other species (or at least morphological variations - red bills, black bills, small, large).
I don't think science has tried to see which birds can be genetically cross bred - that would be interesting to know - but might be difficult to do. It doesn't appear to happen in nature frequently. I saw a nature show where two kinds of birds cross bred in nature producing a confused bird who couldn't seem to attract a mate. (Wish I recalled the type of bird - pheasant maybe?) It was kind of funny watching this male mix trying to puff out it's chest sac with sad results.
01 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by ColettiIf you can't decide if a red billed gull. a black backed gull, a gannet and an albatross are from one common ancestor or were created as four birds, it suggests you have no clear way of distinguishing between created and evolved lines.
I don't really know what the limits would be.
I couldn't say for sure how many of the original created species are around. And it's possible some evolved into new species. I don't think I'd go so far as say that fish evolved into ...[text shortened]... is male mix trying to puff out it's chest sac with sad results.
If so, how can you state positively a fish is not related to a mammal?
01 May 05
4 edits
Originally posted by ColettiWell, here an observed fruit fly speciation event:
I don't really know what the limits would be.
I couldn't say for sure how many of the original created species are around. And it's possible some evolved into new species. I don't think I'd go so far as say that fish evolved into ...[text shortened]... is male mix trying to puff out it's chest sac with sad results.
Dobzhansky and Pavlovsky (1971) reported a speciation event that occurred in a laboratory culture of Drosophila paulistorum sometime between 1958 and 1963. The culture was descended from a single inseminated female that was captured in the Llanos of Colombia. In 1958 this strain produced fertile hybrids when crossed with conspecifics of different strains from Orinocan. From 1963 onward crosses with Orinocan strains produced only sterile males. Initially no assortative mating or behavioral isolation was seen between the Llanos strain and the Orinocan strains. Later on Dobzhansky produced assortative mating (Dobzhansky 1972).
I'm not seeing anything which includes vertebrates. You can take a look at what's out there at the reference site. The guy has made an effort to track down all observed speciation events and he made a list. Not all of them are definite speciation events however. Some are simply showing characteristics which indicate they are on the path to speciation.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
I am curious about one thing regarding this example - don't inseminated flies lay lots of eggs which are not genetically identical? If this is the case, then the genetic makeup of the sample is not homogenous which kind of ruins the value of the observation.
01 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI'd like ID proponents or creationists to take this opportunity to make a prediction. Are there any types of speciation events which we will never, ever observe? Such as speciation of vertebrates?
Well, here an observed fruit fly speciation event:
Dobzhansky and Pavlovsky (1971) reported a speciation event that occurred in a laboratory culture of Drosophila paulistorum sometime between 1958 and 1963. The culture was descend ...[text shortened]... s not homogenous which kind of ruins the value of the observation.
01 May 05
I play against a lot of people from the US, and even have some friends from the US. Americans are generally nice people when you get them on their own.
But as a group ...?
What is it with this anti-Darwin, anti-evolution thing?
Amongst scientists, rational people, and pretty much the rest of the world, there's no debate.
The only people that seem intent on coming up with arguments and evidence against evolution are those against evolution. My question is why? What is so frightening, so scary about this pretty obvious explanation for long-term change in species?
If only Americans would evolve past their fundamental religious roots ...
02 May 05
Originally posted by steerpikeHow can you say otherwise?
If you can't decide if a red billed gull. a black backed gull, a gannet and an albatross are from one common ancestor or were created as four birds, it suggests you have no clear way of distinguishing between created and evolved lines.
If so, how can you state positively a fish is not related to a mammal?
02 May 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI can predict the evolutionist will always need to redraw their trees because of finding unexpected creatures. 🙂
I'd like ID proponents or creationists to take this opportunity to make a prediction. Are there any types of speciation events which we will never, ever observe? Such as speciation of vertebrates?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050502/lf_nm/science_dinosaur_dc_4
02 May 05
Originally posted by amannionMaybe that's the problem. Maybe the rest of the world are like sheep, moving along with the crowd instead of being willing questioning popular opinion. Why is the world so closed minded about this? The argument works both ways.
Amongst scientists, rational people, and pretty much the rest of the world, there's no debate.
02 May 05
Originally posted by Colettigood point, Coletti.. the argument does work both ways.
Maybe that's the problem. Maybe the rest of the world are like sheep, moving along with the crowd instead of being willing questioning popular opinion. Why is the world so closed minded about this? The argument works both ways.
02 May 05
Originally posted by ColettiTrue, however I like to think of myself as very open minded.
Maybe that's the problem. Maybe the rest of the world are like sheep, moving along with the crowd instead of being willing questioning popular opinion. Why is the world so closed minded about this? The argument works both ways.
And your argument works both ways.
Why is the anti-evolution business so unable to listen to criticism of their points of view?
02 May 05
Originally posted by amannionThey are open to criticism. Why can't the evolutionist listen to criticism of their views?
True, however I like to think of myself as very open minded.
And your argument works both ways.
Why is the anti-evolution business so unable to listen to criticism of their points of view?
04 May 05
Originally posted by ColettiThat wasn't the prediction I was asking about. Do you predict based on your model for how life came to be in the forms it is in today that speciation of vertebrates will never be observed? Or are there any other types of speciation that will never be observed?
I can predict the evolutionist will always need to redraw their trees because of finding unexpected creatures. 🙂
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050502/lf_nm/science_dinosaur_dc_4
04 May 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI'm leaning towards a sort of Creationism then post-Creation/Evolution view so I wouldn't rule it out. In general, I'd say it would be difficult unless science comes up with a way of speeding up the process without inadvertently directing the process.
That wasn't the prediction I was asking about. Do you predict based on your model for how life came to be in the forms it is in today that speciation of vertebrates will never be observed? Or are there any other types of speciation that will never be observed?
Maybe will find something that is a pseudo-vertebrate. But then the question that is still difficult to answer - is this a case of a non-vertebrate evolving into a vertebrate (or vice versa).
(Sorry if I got your new thread off track. I am looking forward to what kinds of answers you get to your challenge)
04 May 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI'm still waiting for a chicken to hatch out a toad... which came first? The chicken or the toad? 🙄
That wasn't the prediction I was asking about. Do you predict based on your model for how life came to be in the forms it is in today that speciation of vertebrates will never be observed? Or are there any other types of speciation that will never be observed?