22 Jun 10
Originally posted by sh76You seriously think that the fact that it is "all over the media" means something about the veracity of Kyl's claim?
Yes, but not on CBS and the WSJ.
"The White House vehemently denied the assertion, adding that Kyle "knows" that Obama didn't say it." is all over the media too.
Claims and denials.
Do you think Obama said what Kyl claims he said. Or do you think he said something else - as you have suggested he might - but then twisted it into a thing Obama might consider resigning over?
We can figure this stuff out. Surely Obama is smarter than you and me?
22 Jun 10
Originally posted by utherpendragonWell if Kyl is not claiming that Obama said "I will not secure the border with Mexico until Congress moves on comprehensive immigration reform" then your OP is misleading.
I don't know who is lying. Some one is though.
Thats why I wanted input on this.Not to be accused by a troll from God knows where of creating a misleading OP.
22 Jun 10
Originally posted by FMFNo dumb ass. It has nothing to do w/the veracity of Kyl's claim it has to do w/yours.
You seriously think that the fact that it is "all over the media" means something about the veracity of Kyl's claim?
"The White House vehemently denied the assertion, adding that Kyle "knows" that Obama didn't say it." is all over the media too.
Claims and denials.
Do you think Obama said what Kyl claims he said. Or do you think he said something else ...[text shortened]... esigning over?
We can figure this stuff out. Surely Obama is smarter than you and me?
"Well what you claim he is claiming sounds like something lifted off a paranoid wingnut blog or a daft freeper conspiracy thread."-FMF aka "the troll"
22 Jun 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFOf course the fact that it's all over doesn't mean Kyl is right vis a vis Obama. It just means the article quoted by the OP was not a lie.
You seriously think that the fact that it is "all over the media" means something about the veracity of Kyl's claim?
"The White House vehemently denied the assertion, adding that Kyle "knows" that Obama didn't say it." is all over the media too.
Claims and denials.
Do you think Obama said what Kyl claims he said. Or do you think he said something else ...[text shortened]... esigning over?
We can figure this stuff out. Surely Obama is smarter than you and me?
I have no idea who is correct between Kyl and Obama. I just am saying that to me it doesn't really matter who's correct because, even if Obama did say it, I believe it was a correct analysis.
Edit: Why would Obama lie about this? Simple. I could envision Obama laying out this solid piece of analysis to Kyl but later realizing that it is a politically unsound position and wanting to not make it public. Kyl also has incentive to lie about it, of course. So, you have two politicians with incentives to lie accusing each other of lying. As you might say, dog bites man.
22 Jun 10
Originally posted by utherpendragonOn the contrary. This is thread is all about the plausibility of Kyl's claim. You see, his claim sounds like it might be the sort of sensational twisting of truth that would appeal to a political commentator such as yourself. That might explain the probable lack of veracity on Kyl's part.
It has nothing to do w/the veracity of Kyl's claim it has to do w/yours.
22 Jun 10
Originally posted by FMFStop FMF! Step away from the pills for one moment and think!
Well if Kyl is not claiming that Obama said "I will not secure the border with Mexico until Congress moves on comprehensive immigration reform" then your OP is misleading.
I posted Kyls claim and then the White house claim. Nothing misleading there. Someone is the liar. I am saying who? (you idiot)🙄
22 Jun 10
Originally posted by sh76Do you think he said "I will not secure the border with Mexico until Congress moves on comprehensive immigration reform"? Seems daft. Maybe he said "Securing the border without Congress moving on comprehensive immigration reform will do little good" which makes sense. But to turn something like that into "I will not secure the border with Mexico until Congress moves on comprehensive immigration reform" sounds like a second tier retail politician from Arizona trying to grab headlines with a manufactured "damning quote" that plays well to the utherpendragons and whodeys of this world.
I just am saying that to me it doesn't really matter who's correct because, even if Obama did say it, I believe it was a correct analysis.
22 Jun 10
Originally posted by utherpendragonJust stick to the topic and OP rather than hijacking the thread with your threadbare angry insults about "pills" and me being an "idiot". You never get to a second page of one of your threads without throwing a fit.
Stop FMF! Step away from the pills for one moment and think!
Do you seriously think that Obama used these words, as your OP claims: "I will not secure the border with Mexico until Congress moves on comprehensive immigration reform"?
22 Jun 10
Originally posted by FMFI don't know.
Just stick to the topic and OP rather than hijacking the thread with your threadbare angry insults about "pills" and me being an "idiot". You never get to a second page of one of your threads without throwing a fit.
Do you seriously think that Obama used these words, as your OP claims: [b]"I will not secure the border with Mexico until Congress moves on comprehensive immigration reform"?[/b]
Thats why the thread is titled "whos a liar?"
Kyl said he did. Is he the liar?
The White house said no. Are they the liars?
What could Kyl gain by lying?
What could the White house gain by lying?
22 Jun 10
Originally posted by FMFMaybe it went something like this:
Do you think he said "I will not secure the border with Mexico until Congress moves on comprehensive immigration reform"? Seems daft. Maybe he said "Securing the border without Congress moving on comprehensive immigration reform will do little good" which makes sense. But to turn something like that into "I will not secure the border with Mexico until Congress m ...[text shortened]... ctured "damning quote" that plays well to the utherpendragons and whodeys of this world.
Kyl: Mr. President, you need to use the power of the federal government to secure the border immediately
Obama: Senator, that should be done as part of a comprehensive immigration reform bill
Kyl: But Mr. President, this is a situation that threatens national security and needs an immediate solution
Obama: Well, Senator, then your party should cooperate with mine to put all issues on the table and get them settled. I don't think it would be appropriate to take steps to solve part of the problem and leave the other unattended
I could see something like that. Could be interpreted any way you like.
22 Jun 10
Originally posted by utherpendragonDo you seriously think that Obama used these words, as your OP claims: "I will not secure the border with Mexico until Congress moves on comprehensive immigration reform"? No. Either Kyl is lying - I reckon - or the exact thing Kyl is claiming has been terribly paraphrased. Kyl's claim, as it reads in your OP, is implausible. Either Obama has been misquoted - making Kyl a liar. Or Kyl has been misquoted and if he isn't setting the record straight right now on your TV - then he is effectively a liar.
I don't know.
Thats why the thread is titled "whos a liar?"
Kyl said he did. Is he the liar?
The White house said no. Are they the liars?
What could Kyl gain by lying?
What could the White house gain by lying?
22 Jun 10
2 edits
Originally posted by utherpendragonPolitical points.
What could Kyl gain by lying?
Why would Obama say "I will not secure the border with Mexico until Congress moves on comprehensive immigration reform" when not only is there nothing to gain from it, it would be politically damaging to say such a thing?
I think sh76's instincts are right. Obama said something else. And I think Kyl has twisted it for political gain.
22 Jun 10
Originally posted by sh76The U.S.A., the States, the Border Patrol, The President IS SECURING the border. Are they doing it well enough? Probably no. Definitely no, it seems. Would a president - any president - say "I will not secure the borders until [something]"? No.
Maybe it went something like this:
Kyl: Mr. President, you need to use the power of the federal government to secure the border immediately
Obama: Senator, that should be done as part of a comprehensive immigration reform bill
Kyl: But Mr. President, this is a situation that threatens national security and needs an immediate solution
Obama: Well, Se ...[text shortened]... e other unattended
I could see something like that. Could be interpreted any way you like.
22 Jun 10
Originally posted by sh76Obama just sent a bunch of troops to the border, didn't he? I'm sure Kyl doesn't think that is sufficient (actually neither do I) but obviously he has "taken steps to secure the border" prior to comprehensive immigration reform.
Maybe it went something like this:
Kyl: Mr. President, you need to use the power of the federal government to secure the border immediately
Obama: Senator, that should be done as part of a comprehensive immigration reform bill
Kyl: But Mr. President, this is a situation that threatens national security and needs an immediate solution
Obama: Well, Se ...[text shortened]... e other unattended
I could see something like that. Could be interpreted any way you like.
Does the fact that Kyl made this claim initially to a bunch of Tea Partiers rather than to the press corps make his claim less plausible?
22 Jun 10
Originally posted by no1marauderAccording to last week's Ecomomist the U.S. border patrol has been doubled. Why on Earth would Obama say "I will not secure the border...". Kyl is probably the liar.
Obama just sent a bunch of troops to the border, didn't he? I'm sure Kyl doesn't think that is sufficient (actually neither do I) but obviously he has "taken steps to secure the border" prior to comprehensive immigration reform.