02 Nov 04
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Originally posted by royalchickenThis is mostly about the US presidential election, and I hope people read it before they vote. There are clearly good pragmatic reasons to vote, but bear in mind that that institution is flawed from several points of view.
...from several premises. I have to go, but I'll fill this in in just over an hour. I'm only putting this up so I remember to do it. I'll try and include some refutations as well.
1. Voting in General
The premise which leads to establishment of a system of elections is that each person should be given approximately equal expression of his or her opinion. If we assume that a plurality of votes in favor of some option indicates that that option is the best representation of society's opinion, then we run into a few problems. In the case of the US presidential elections, a simple plurality of votes in a given state determines the public's choice. However, in cases with multiple candidates, numerical circumstances can be constructed such that the choice of winner is dependent on how the votes are organized (for example, results would be different if voters were asked to rank the candidates in some order of preference and a run-off was organized). There is no way to defend a particular voting system in such cases, so any particular system of voting is not guaranteed to produce the ''will of the people'' unless the ''will of the people'' is more clearly defined. It should be noted that only certain ranges of proportions of the votes to each candidate give rise to such situations but they are possible. Therefore, the usefulness of any particular voting system is questionable.
2. Faith in One's Neighbours
Policy supported by one candidate is often objectively comparable to the other candidates' policy. In other words, choosing between candidates can be done in large part by careful analysis of their stances on various issues, but this analysis requires a knowledge of history, economics etc. beyond the reach of most voters. Also, many voters are unlikely to attempt such an analysis, and thus the will of the people is largely irrelevant in choosing the candidate whose policies are most beneficial to the public. For example, although I'm not old enough to vote in the current election, if I were I would not feel very confident doing so.
I'm just going to start with these. I can think of partial refutations for both, but I'd like to hear commentary from voters. The most common reason people don't vote is the ''Same Shit, Different Day'' argument which I will try to make a sensible version of later.
Of course, arguments against voting as an institution are not necessarily reasons not to vote.
02 Nov 04
Originally posted by kw72uk
What puts me off voting is the fact that politicians generally lie to get elected. There may be some that don't but I've seen so many instances of blatant lies/cover ups that my view is forever tainted.
🙁
Which you could say, brings about a fundamental flaw in the current democratic process. Any honest person who attempts to get into power would quickly be out voted by someone who uses deception and lies to get to the top.
Therefore, anyone who reaches that level of power would be untrustworthy.
02 Nov 04
1 edit
Who would you rather have in office? If you don't care, don't vote. I did vote, cuz I'm going to bitch about Bush if he's elected again.
Don't vote, shut up about it. You didn't help either way and now have no say.
I will also add that RC is not of age to vote yet, which is why he's not going to vote. If he is 18 now, I guess he's dumber than I thought.
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My name is Phlabibit, and I approve this post.
02 Nov 04
Originally posted by PhlabibitI already mentioned that I'm not old enough to vote; that's bit of evidence (1) that you didn't read my post.
Who would you rather have in office? If you don't care, don't vote. I did vote, cuz I'm going to bitch about Bush if he's elected again.
That's good that you'll 'bitch'. Bush is an evil, conniving man. However, if you had voted for Bush, and then he subsequently did something that you didn't agree with, would you thus have lost your bitching rights? What about a hypothetical (okay, not hypothetical, there's rwingett) who is happier when bitching? In that case, the strategy to ensure one's maximum potential happiness is to vote for the candidate you are most likely to vote against. That's clearly a dangerous philosophy for the rest of society, provided you bitch sensibly, so it adds strength to the premise, if not the conclusion, of the ''Faith in One's Neighbours'' argument. That's datum (2) in favor of your not having read my post.
Don't vote, shut up about it. You didn't help either way and now have no say.
I'm not advocating not voting, necessarily; I'm just making arguments about why the institution of voting is flawed, which conclusion I make clear is not necessarily a reason not to vote. There is no need to personalize this issue; the fact that the voting system is flawed does not constitute a personal attack of any kind, and certain bits of the Bill of Rights that guarantee that within limits a citizen has his or her say does not require that he or she voted.
02 Nov 04
Originally posted by royalchickenwho you calling little man in your case size dosent matter and i have never alerted the mods about nothing like what you describe but i know alot of people who have
I put it in General because it is a response to Acolyte's post in a General Forum thread. If you like, tell a mod to move it. Apparently, you were offended by the use if the word 'shit' in the second post, because you clearly didn't read it carefully, otherwise you would haveknown I made no comment on the subject of ''who to vote''.
I'm a ...[text shortened]... g means the above arguments should not be considered.
Slapped with a white glove, little man.
slapped back by big guy😉fnm
02 Nov 04
What about a hypothetical (okay, not hypothetical, there's rwingett) who is happier when bitching?I'll be quite happy when we start sending Republicans and fundamentalist, evangelical christians en masse to the guillotine. Nothing would make me happier than to see Bush's head in that basket. 😉
02 Nov 04
Originally posted by royalchicken(1)Yes, I missed the line where you said you were not of age... oh, well.
I already mentioned that I'm not old enough to vote; that's bit of evidence (1) that you didn't read my post.
[b]Who would you rather have in office? If you don't care, don't vote. I did vote, cuz I'm going to bitch about Bush if he's elected again.
That's good that you'll 'bitch'. Bush is an evil, conniving man. However, if ...[text shortened]... guarantee that within limits a citizen has his or her say does not require that he or she voted.[/b]
As for my neighbors (2)... I don't trust them. Also, it is an advatage to Republicans if fewer people vote... from what I understand.
Now if Kerry wins, can I still bitch?! Good point. Yeah, I will bitch!
They both suck, we all know that... but I still feel everyone that can vote should... but yes, they should know why they vote for who they vote for.
The biggest reason I vote Democrat is environmental issues, as well as more support for the middle class... not just the big business owners.
Sorry to be rough on you, that was uncalled for... but I figure you can handle it.
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02 Nov 04
Originally posted by PhlabibitNo worries; I'm not offended, per se, I just didn't know quite what you were talking about.
(1)Yes, I missed the line where you said you were not of age... oh, well.
As for my neighbors (2)... I don't trust them. Also, it is an advatage to Republicans if fewer people vote... from what I understand.
Now if Kerry wins, can I still bitch?! Good point. Yeah, I will bitch!
They both suck, we all know that... but I still feel everyon ...[text shortened]... rs.
Sorry to be rough on you, that was uncalled for... but I figure you can handle it.
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