General
04 Oct 03
07 Oct 03
Originally posted by ivanhoeWe "studied" this way of seeing the world from the way Belgium views it's roll in the Congo in it's bloody "days of glory". Murder for the sake of murder. No purpose to it whatsoever. Real images are not always fun to look at, so we prefer the Belgium model of history appreciation.
A lot of Americans frefer the "Hollywood" image of their country rather than the real image ... It is often too painfull for them ...
07 Oct 03
1 edit
Originally posted by StarValleyWy
We "studied" this way of seeing the world from the way Belgium views it's roll in the Congo in it's bloody "days of glory". Murder for the sake of murder. No purpose to it whatsoever. Real images are not always fun to look at, so we prefer the Belgium model of history appreciation.
Who is "we" ?
...and why do you present the way Belgium treated her colony/former colony when I'm talking about the self image of a lot of US citizens ...
07 Oct 03
1 edit
Originally posted by ivanhoe"We"... are the afore impuned "Americans" who see themselves through the lens of "hollywood". "We" americans who are not capable of knowing when we have had war declared on us and been attacked , but rather think it is a movie set and a script. "We" who die just to sell tickets to the movie called "9-11... When The Evil Americans Finally Got Theirs!". At least that is YOUR implication.
Who is "we" ?
Who is your "we"? You got a tur* in your pocket?
<my edit to your edit>
Oh, sorry Ivan. I forgot that you are the Herrenvolk. Never should question your motives for casting insults should we?
07 Oct 03
Originally posted by StarValleyWy
"We"... are the afore impuned "Americans" who see themselves through the lens of "hollywood". "We" americans who are not capable of knowing when we have had war declared on us and been attacked , but rather think it is a movie set and a script. "We" who die just to sell tickets to the movie called "9-11... When The Evil Americans Finally Got ...[text shortened]... s!". At least that is YOUR implication.
Who is your "we"? You got a tur* in your pocket?
The way I see the United States is clearly different from the way you described it. I hope I have a more balanced way of looking to the country, its inhabitants and its policies both internal and external.
Why is it, that the mightiest and richest country in the world is not capable solving its social problems like for instance the enormous poverty ? the enormous differences between rich and poor ?
07 Oct 03
Originally posted by ivanhoeThe poorest amongst us match up quite well with the average of Europe, thanks.
The way I see the United States is clearly different from the way you described it. I hope I have a more balanced way of looking to the country, its inhabitants and its policies both internal and external.
Why is it, that the mightiest and richest country in the world is not capable solving its social problems like for instance the enormous poverty ? the enormous differences between rich and poor ?
07 Oct 03
1 edit
Originally posted by ivanhoeI assume that by attacking me and diverting attention away from "The New Threat Of Totallitarianism" that my effort in this thread to point out that totallitarians are still around angers you? Please explain why. And why the obvious attempt of divirting attention away from the subject onto your views of America? Go start your own thread about "Why Ivan The Terrible Hates America" and leave this one alone.
The way I see the United States is clearly different from the way you described it. I hope I have a more balanced way of looking to the country, its inhabitants and its policies both internal and external.
Why is it, that the mightiest ...[text shortened]... us poverty ? the enormous differences between rich and poor ?
07 Oct 03
Originally posted by StarValleyWy
Oh, sorry Ivan. I forgot that you are the Herrenvolk. Never should question your motives for casting insults should we?[/b]
Here we go again ...
Spare me your sarcasm, especially when it is based on the wrong assumptions. I'm not Belgium, I'm not German, I'm Dutch.
You are one of the Americans, there are others thank God, who cannot take criticism. They just become raging bulls ... start using (misplaced) sarcasm, start insulting people and just cannot handle the situation.
07 Oct 03
Originally posted by ivanhoeYou are lecturing me?! Jesus H. on a bun. That is pure chic! You take critisism like a bull with a dart in it's ass, and you are critisizing me! Amazing! Go figure. The "situation" is this Ivan... This thread WAS about a subject of my choosing. You ruined it, changed it to your own purpose, as usual. That purpose is to spite me. As Usual. When are you ever going to just leave me and my stuff alone, you egomaniachal simpleton? Please just go away.
Here we go again ...
Spare me your sarcasm, especially when it is based on the wrong assumptions. I'm not Belgium, I'm not German, I'm Dutch.
You are one of the Americans, there are others thank God, who cannot take criticism. They just become raging bulls ... start using (misplaced) sarcasm, start insulting people and just cannot handle the situation.
07 Oct 03
Originally posted by StarValleyWy
You are lecturing me?! Jesus H. on a bun. That is pure chic! You take critisism like a bull with a dart in it's ass, and you are critisizing me! Amazing! Go figure. The "situation" is this Ivan... This thread WAS about a subject of my choosing. You ruined it, changed it to your own purpose, as usual. That purpose is to spite me. As Usual. When are y ...[text shortened]... ever going to just leave me and my stuff alone, you egomaniachal simpleton? Please just go away.
You were talking about Islam fundamentalists.
Well, why do you think they chose the U.S. and the rest of the western world as a target, you think ?
07 Oct 03
Originally posted by ivanhoeBecause starting in the 1940's Islam started turning away from being a religion and started working toward a "Universal Islamic State" ruled by God. This movement... who's founding writer is an Egyptian named Qutb , is based on a work entitled "In The Shade Of The Q'uran". I really don't expect you to get this, because you are on their side in trying to destroy secular society. But this new version of totallitarianism is based on "The Brotherhood Of Islam" which began in the 50's is in all out war against "Secular Societies" of the world. They have sworn to KILL ALL OF US. They are pathologically insane. That is why. There is a reason why the Saudi's and the Bathist's are BOTH PAYING MONEY TO SUICIDE BOMBERS. They are in competition for leadership of the Totallitarianism Of Islam.
You were talking about Islam fundamentalists.
Well, why do you think they chose the U.S. and the rest of the western world as a target, you think ?
I can't wait to hear your "Hollywood/Hate/UglyAmerican" interpretation of why they have declared war on us.
08 Oct 03
7 edits
You mention Sayyid Qutb. He was the first great theoretician of the Islamist movement. After 10 years in prison he was hanged in Cairo in 1966 during the reign of the late president Nasser. You could call him the theoretician of the Jihad. He also wrote "Islam and the Problems of Civilisation". The "Nizam Islami" is the Islamic Order the Islamists want to realise first in the Arabic world and then in the rest of the world.
I see this Islam movement not as a religious movement, but as a political one. It is the reshaping of the Arab ideal of having one Arab nation. It is in essence a nationalist political movement that in the past took the form of socialism , for instance the People's Liberation Front for Palestine, the "socialist" Baath party in Irak,etc.. In our days this nationalist movement has taken the form of a religious movement and wants to unite the Islam nations around the world under Arab leadership. They want to seize power in a lot of countries. They tried in Algeria and they are trying in Jordan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan etc,etc. If they would succeed to seize power in Egypt and Saudi Arabia then we are in big, big trouble. I'm sure that all the politicians in the west and the rest of the world, know this.
Let us look at their motives. As usual for movements that have resentment in their banners they point to the past stating that they were not treated decently. They are right. But they don't want a better relationship with the former colonial powers, they want revenge and they want to domineer their former masters.
An other important issue is the issue of "civilisation". The Islamists are fighting the Western values as they see it: free abortion, euthanasia, free sex, pornography, homosexuality, woman's lib., the rudeness, the indifference, the materialism, the arrogance, the spiritual poverty, the secularisation within western culture, the capitalist society, the exploitation of the third world,the wish to dominate others, etc,etc. Yes, they see the western world as a world of the devil and the United States as the leader of that world. Israel is the vanguard of that evil world.
The American liberals are blaming the conservatives, the imperialists, the neo colonialists, for this situation and they are right. But they must also become aware that their own liberal freethinker ideas are very threatening for a lot of people in the third world including the arab and the Islamic world. The Islamist movement exploits these feelings of resentment and fear among the people as all totalitarian movements do.
If we, in the West, want to win this confrontation, and we have to win it, we have to understand what is going on and we have to look in the mirror in order to understand our own role in the past and in the present in order to handle things better and more humane in the future. If governments think they can win this war solely with military means they are mistaken. This war will not be won on the battle field.
08 Oct 03
Originally posted by ivanhoeSo you say we must "look in the mirror". So the effort of a bunch of insane, ranting religious nuts who are out to murder for the sake of murder is our fault. Golly gee... that sure is deep thinking. In case you haven't noticed... Islam's insane mistreatment of women and virtually every muslim without power is the classic definition of tyranny. They are murdering themselves faster than they are murdering us. All for their god. The whole point of me bringing up the French Socialists of the 1930's was to point out that they, like you felt obligated to " believe the best " about totallitarians, and to find a solution that was calming and comforting to themselves, instead of being "frightening" and awful. Their constant reference back to the "Horrors of Verdun" illustrates their true driving force for compromising with evil. Fear, and a desire to be safe. You are making that same mistake. In the same way. For the same reasons. To peace loving people "there is always a why". But remember the famous motto of the guards at Auschwitz... "There Is No Why Here".
You mention Sayyid Qutb. He was the first great theoretician of the Islamist movement. After 10 years in prison he was hanged in Cairo in 1966 during the reign of the late president Nasser. You could call him the theoretician of the Jihad. He also wrote "Islam and the Problems of Civilisation". The "Nizam Islami" is the Islamic Order the Islamists wan ...[text shortened]... y with military means they are mistaken. This war will not be won on the battle field.
And again you miss the point. What "governments" think is not even relevant. The war is declared ON US. NOT BY US. We can't pick the terms of the war, because it is being shaped and defined by the totallitarians. I hate to awaken you from your dream here, but IF THE WAR IS NOT WON ON THE BATTLE FIELD, IT WILL BE LOST. The battlefield is defined, manned and totally engaged. The enemy has not even a slight desire for a compromise. They want to die. But mostly, they want to kill before they die. This entire thread is about that. The "Refusal" of people to see and acknowledge the obvious. We seem to have an almost limitless ability to deceive ourselves. Strange.
08 Oct 03
Originally posted by ivanhoeAnd here is the absolute reason for all the trouble. Failure to understand Islam. "There is but One God". With this being the driving force of Islam... you could say it's ONLY force, who do you think will head the "Arab ideal of having one Arab nation"? A person? Think again. The one government will be led by God, or the world will perish in the war to accomplish this. Can "One God" tolerate being shoved into a corner and being told that He has no role in "modern, civilized, government"? No. Hence... it is a matter of All Or Nothing. Our western ideas of "separation of church and state" and "compromise" is what fuels the current war. It is the most serious sin that can exist, according to the Wahabeists. So when you see the current batch of totallitarians as a political movement.... it shows how little you have studied the problem. It is a problem of "Total Control Of All Government By Islam" problem. I just find it easier to call it by what it is. Totallatarianism. Again. Or Still. Not sure it will ever go away.
I see this Islam movement not as a religious movement, but as a political one. It is the reshaping of the Arab ideal of having one Arab nation.
[/b]
08 Oct 03
Originally posted by StarValleyWyFirst off, I must confess that I know very little about the Islamic religion and that all of my knowledge of them comes from my understanding of current/recent events (i.e. the last forty or so years). That said, my understanding of the matter is very akin to your view. We are at war and it is not going to go away any time soon.
And here is the absolute reason for all the trouble. Failure to understand Islam. "There is but One God". With this being the driving force of Islam... you could say it's ONLY force, who do you think will head the "Arab ideal of having one Arab nation"? A person? Think again. The one government will be led by God, or the world will perish in the wa ...[text shortened]... sier to call it by what it is. Totallatarianism. Again. Or Still. Not sure it will ever go away.
I believe that a lot of the misunderstanding of Islam comes from vast differences between what we in the Western world hold to be fundamental values of a stable society to those same reasons that fuel their fury at us. While it is easy for us to consider an individual as being religiously intolerant to the point that they would murder, I think it is difficult for us as a society to grasp that an entire culture holds these principles. To this day, I myself still have a hard time comprehending this. It is hard for me to understand that such multitudes of people would purposefully work so hard at creating such harm. My own values are in such stark contrast that it is mindboggling to try to fathom this mentality.
Regardless of if I can understand the people behind it or not, what I can understand is senseless destruction, especially if it is MY senseless destruction.
08 Oct 03
1 edit
Originally posted by OmnislashThis is why I was ranting on about the French Socialists pre-WW2. They just couldn't help but think it was something they did. The treaty of versailles or something that "forced" the Germans into totallitarianism.
First off, I must confess that I know very little about the Islamic religion and that all of my knowledge of them comes from my understanding of current/recent events (i.e. the last forty or so years). That said, my understanding of the m ...[text shortened]... seless destruction, especially if it is MY senseless destruction.
Quoting Paul Berman here...
"But the political arguments (against war) rested on something deeper, too... a philosophical belief, profound, large,attractive, which was reassuring instead of terrifying. It was the belief that, in the modern world, even the enemies of reason cannot be the enemies of reason. Even the unreasonable must be, in some fashion, reasonable.
The beleif underlying those anti-war arguments was, in short, an unyielding faith in universal rathionality. It was the old-fashioned liberal naivete of the nineteenth century-- the simple minded optimism that had blown up in the First World War but that, even so, indestructible, had lingered into the twentieth-century imagination."
End Quote.
I can only add that this same "unyielding faith" still haunts us as we move into the twenty first century, and causes us to blame ourselves. It is not us folks. These are totally insane killers... and I hate to keep harping on it, but they are "Totallitarians". There is no half way. Their irrationality is total.