09 Apr 08
Originally posted by marmalade teacakehi, its a very interesting point that you make, the problem for us is that much of what we receive is through the media and not based on actual experience, thus our perceptions are inevitably tainted as a result. the point about violence is very worthwhile, this differs from Christianity in its original form in that Muslims do have certain criteria for the adoption of violence, for example a persistently disobedient wife, they have the authority to beat them, or in the case of a perceived blasphemy, as in Pakistan, this is a capital crime punishable by death, although no one so far has been convicted of it due to international pressure in the individual cases, or if someone converts to another religion this is a premise also for violence. then there is the case for honour killings, dishonour brought upon a family by the behaviour of certain of its members, although this may be a cultural practise, it never the less highlights the sanctioned use of extreme violence for certain perceived misdemeanour's.
I have no real knowledge of the Quran or Islamic religion / beliefs in general (like the majority of the population I guess?). So far, I have failed to see anything "beautiful" in it at all. It all appears to be totally violence based, with everything "good" being there for the devout, a reward system for extreme behaviour. Itwould be interesting ( ...[text shortened]... on by highlighting the noble and good within it, instead of just calling for more bloodshed.
However, there are also many aspects for us to consider, Muslim hospitality, of which I have been a recipient of on many occasions is second to none! There literally is no greater honour you can do someone than by being their guest, this is hospitality in its original meaning being given to strangers and not mere acquaintances, although once again this is an eastern cultural aspect equally provided for by Sikhs and Hindus etc. there is also love and concern for neighbour, in the u.k if you have Muslim neighbours its not unusual if they are having a festival or friends over to pass food and goodies through to you next door. There are of course many other beautiful aspects such as Islamic architecture, Classical poetry etc etc. but its a very sound and valid point you make to try and highlight the positive and virtuous aspects, a little light is able to overcome a great darkness, however, no matter how great the darkness it cannot penetrate even a little light, man, now i sound like an eastern philosopher, Lol, thank you very much for a very thoughtful comment it is really very much appreciated, regards Robbie.
09 Apr 08
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThis I have a problem with. Whilst I know most religions have been guilty of similar throughout history, I really struggle to even remotely condone anything that is perpetuated through fear.
....or if someone converts to another religion this is a premise also for violence.....
09 Apr 08
2 edits
Originally posted by Daemon Sinseems to me he started conducting this thread with a superficial innocence and civility, cloaking his agenda which is to mount a soap box to counter argue against the film. i have no comment on the film, and i expect that many people are successfully deterred from comment on the film or muslim issues in general by religio-fascist threats and terrorism that are all too familiar.
Sounds like you're just looking for a fight.
09 Apr 08
Originally posted by shavixmirTrue that the Old Testament has harsh content too..
Yes, they are real quotes out oh the koran.
But just look at the old testament! That's pretty sick too.
Fitna is right wing propaganda by an extremely right-wing politician, one who doesn't turn up at any of the debates on the issues he raises, because he knows thst he's generalising millions of people, based on the behaviour of a few.
One could make such a film about any religion or political movement and it would be equally true.
However, I believe Geert Wilders is trying to show that a substantial group op people in Holland is using old verses of the Quran in todays Dutch society, not willing to accept the liberal concept that we live by today..
09 Apr 08
1 edit
Originally posted by eamon oon what do you base your assumption, and that after all that's what it is as you have no way of knowing what my motives are, if platonic philosophy has taught us nothing else it has taught us to base nothing on assumptions, if you have no comment on the film then why are you posting comments here ????, this is a thread about this film, its implications and the thoughts of those who do wish to comment, if as i suspect you are used to something of a more trivial nature then there are plenty of other posts about beer, ribs, guitarists, homosexuals for you to comment on, normally i would thank you for your post but you have said nothing!
seems to me he started conducting this thread with a superficial innocence and civility, cloaking his agenda which is to mount a soap box to counter argue against the film. i have no comment on the film, and i expect that many people are successfully deterred from comment on the film or muslim issues in general by religio-fascist threats and terrorism that are all too familiar.
09 Apr 08
Originally posted by marmalade teacakevery well said, but sadly this is the present state of affairs!
This I have a problem with. Whilst I know most religions have been guilty of similar throughout history, I really struggle to even remotely condone anything that is perpetuated through fear.
09 Apr 08
Originally posted by Amsterdamnmmm this is incredibly interesting and i think that this is really why Mr Wilders has produced his film, Dutch society is incredibly liberal, i have visited your fair city and was blown away by it. Do you not feel that because of its very liberal nature it has created the conditions of which the film makes mention, Theo van Gough murdered for example, art exhibitions in Germany closed for fear of reprisal, Swedish cartoonists under police protection 24/7. your comments are really appreciated, regards Robbie.
True that the Old Testament has harsh content too..
However, I believe Geert Wilders is trying to show that a substantial group op people in Holland is using old verses of the Quran in todays Dutch society, not willing to accept the liberal concept that we live by today..
09 Apr 08
3 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobiei assumed nothing. you think youre very clever but you dont own this thread yet it seems that you are trying to control it and everything anyone contributes.
on what do you base your assumption, and that after all that's what it is as you have no way of knowing what my motives are, if platonic philosophy has taught us nothing else it has taught us to base nothing on assumptions, if you have no comment on the film then why are you posting comments here ????, this is a thread about this film, its implicatio ...[text shortened]... uals for you to comment on, normally i would thank you for your post but you have said nothing!
09 Apr 08
Originally posted by eamon olook, first of all you assume you claim you know my motives, secondly you claim to speak for others, and i quote, 'i expect that many people are successfully deterred from comment on the film or muslim issues in general by religio-fascist threats and terrorism that are all too familiar', it may be news but people have their own minds regardless of what you expect, thirdly you have once again tried whether consciously or otherwise, i don't know, to detract attention away from the film which was the main focus of the thread at the outset by personally attacking me, whom you have never met nor are ever likely to, fourthly you claim that you know what i think about myself, that I am erudite, again another assumption. I am simply contributing my thoughts in what was an open and candid discussion until you decided to hijack it with your personal attack, if you have nothing better to do, would you mind please refraining or contribute something with content _ regards Robbie Carrobie
i assumed nothing. you think youre very clever but you dont own this thread yet it seems that you are trying to control it and everything anyone contributes.
09 Apr 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAre you saying that what we see in the media is wrong?
hi, its a very interesting point that you make, the problem for us is that much of what we receive is through the media and not based on actual experience
Some of the things seen I would not want to experience on a personal level.
Its just another crazy religion.
09 Apr 08
Originally posted by adramforallah my Celtic cousin, greetings from bonnie Glasgow, what has been you're own experience ? have you found the media to be manipulative? Actually, without sounding pretentious this is a philosophical question, i.e. whether there is knowledge without actual experience as all other things besides experience we take it upon trust as to their validity, however, consider this, How are Muslims in this case generally perceived through the media? but what happens when you go to the corner shop, you see some old guy working from dusk till dawn with the same problems as you or I, so what has happened in our minds? for example the bbc, has completely whitewashed its coverage of the release of this film, it states things like, 'it appears that Muslim demonstrators were holding placards', were they real Muslims, were they really holding placards saying 'wait for the real holocaust, Hiltler was right etc.', yes, then why not say so?, its says there was simply ' a young girl in a head scarf', it refuses to call her a Muslim, why? this imho, is the trouble with the media, you get disinformation, information that purports to tell you things but in fact says nothing - kind regards Robert.
Are you saying that what we see in the media is wrong?
Some of the things seen I would not want to experience on a personal level.
Its just another crazy religion.
10 Apr 08
Originally posted by AmsterdamnAnd at the same time we're bombing Afganistan and supporting the US in Iraq...
True that the Old Testament has harsh content too..
However, I believe Geert Wilders is trying to show that a substantial group op people in Holland is using old verses of the Quran in todays Dutch society, not willing to accept the liberal concept that we live by today..
I'm pretty much sure that causes more aggro than a couple of mullah's reading ancient veres.