18 Sep 03
Originally posted by belgianfreakI am in a similar position to you, though I'm sure rwingett could point you to some 'atheist pride' websites to make you less envious of religious people. I can't think of any easy resolution to your friends' problem though.
I don't believe in God, or much else for that matter. I have some very good friends who are very religeous, which I respect and even envy. My main problem at the moment is that although they are happy (if told) to drop the subject so that it doesn't interfeer with our friendship, my agnosticism (is that a word?) upsets them because 'they're going to ...[text shortened]... g, but the feeling of gloom from them & guilt for making them gloomy from me is always lurking.
I have no problem in principle with religion. What I don't like is the imposition of religious beliefs and practices on others, as this causes all sorts of problems. Unfortunately some religions explicitly encourage this, such as Christianity and Islam.
18 Sep 03
Originally posted by iamatigerDid Josef Goebbels have good motives for trying to convert the German populace to Nazism? I think he sincerely believed that Nazism was good and that their lives would be better if converted. But he was wrong.
My way of looking at it, is that a Christian would generally have good motives for trying to convert an Atheist, as a Christian will believe that the person's life will be better if converted. However Atheists don't usually think that their lives are better than Christians (although they don't think they are worse either) - so why should an Atheist try ...[text shortened]... rguments with them. However a good Atheist should not start religious arguments with Christians.
The Christians base their happiness around a falsehood. They accept the denigration of their personal self worth in exchange for some pie in the sky theory of salvation. By spending their life in subservience to a false idol, they are cheapening and demeaning their own lives for some illusory happyland in the sky. Accepting that you are unworthy and that your basic desires are sinful is an unhealthy way of life.
As atheists have stripped this damaging and mentally stultifying medieval claptrap from their lives, they believe that their lives ARE better than that of the Christian, who is still prostrating himself in the dirt before his false idol and declaring himself to be unworthy.
It's not the Christian who is unworthy, it is Christianity that is unworthy.
18 Sep 03
Originally posted by rwingettI'd prefer to think everyone is right, not wrong on this subject.
Did Josef Goebbels have good motives for trying to convert the German populace to Nazism? I think he sincerely believed that Nazism was good and that their lives would be better if converted. But he was wrong.
The Christians base their happiness around a falsehood. They accept the denigration of their personal self worth in exchange for some pie in the ...[text shortened]... to be unworthy.
It's not the Christian who is unworthy, it is Christianity that is unworthy.
I hope my God has a good sense of humor... and likes golf.
Phla-
18 Sep 03
2 edits
Originally posted by rwingettWas Goebbels wrong? Of course. Would the lives of Germans have been 'better' if they converted to Nazism? Maybe they would have been - as long as they were aerian, straight, non-Jewish etc, life under Nazi rule might have been 'better' because they would be the elite class and treated as such. It would have been 'worse' for everyone else, but Goebbels wasn't speaking to them.
Did Josef Goebbels have good motives for trying to convert the German populace to Nazism? I think he sincerely believed that Nazism was good and that their lives would be better if converted. But he was wrong.
The Christians base their ...[text shortened]... he Christian who is unworthy, it is Christianity that is unworthy.
You argue that Christians have a 'worse' life because they spend their time "in subservience to a false idol" which cheapens their existance, but is this really true? While I agree that spending your life thinking you are scum and that you are evil for the way you feel isn't healthy, but there is a flipside. If you are a Christian, or in fact believe in most religions, then you are given an insulation from life (IMHO). "I'm hungry, but that's OK because God will look after me" "My family has just died of startvation, but that's OK because they are in heaven now" "I'm going to die, but there is a better life waiting for me". I'm not trying to imply that religeon makes people apathetic, but it does mean that no matter what happens you can still believe that everything will be alright in the end,a nd I believe having this belief makes you happier with the present.
"But it's not real!" many people cry. OK, imagine 2 men stuck in a blizard without coats, but one is convinced he has an invisable coat and that's enough to make him feel warm. So both men die, but one dies having been happier - in the end it doesn't matter that the coat wasn't real or that he wasn't really warm, because the imaginary coat made him happier than the man who saw the truth. That's why I can envy Christians while not being one, if that makes any sense.
<edit> Phla - who is the guy in your avatar (with the yelow turban), just after what I presume is Vishnu? I have seen his image before in an Indian household, but didn't know who he was. At the time I guessed he was a prophet or an ancestor they were proud in a spiritual way 😳
18 Sep 03
1 edit
Originally posted by belgianfreakNo, belief in Nazism did not make life better for the Germans. The fact that many of them did buy into Goebbel's vision led them to ruin, for that vision was inherently flawed.
Was Goebbels wrong? Of course. Would the lives of Germans have been 'better' if they converted to Nazism? Maybe they would have been - as long as they were aerian, straight, non-Jewish etc, life under Nazi rule might have been 'bett ...[text shortened]... age before in an Indian household, but didn't know who he was. 😳
Once Christianity became the established religion, it had a vested interest in protecting its new status and the established order. Christianity by its very nature teaches subservience to the established order. They say that if you accept your wretched lot in life with humility and stoicism then you'll be rewarded with plenty in the "hereafter". I'm paraphrasing, of course, but that is the gist of it. Don't rock the boat here on Earth, and God will take care of you later. Christianity has a vested interest in convincing people that they are "fallen" and strive mightily to make sure they remain in that fallen state.
Your parable about the freezing men may be valid as far as it goes, but what if it was the Christian's faith which led him out into the cold without any coat in the first place? If he believed that God would protect him from the environment and he subsequently froze to death, then who is happier? The dead Christian with the smile frozen on his face, or the atheist who doubted the Christian's faith and stayed inside the warm cabin?
18 Sep 03
Originally posted by rwingettdavid-a lowly shepard boy-was satisfied with his lot in life. he later became one of the greatest kings of isriel...
No, belief in Nazism did not make life better for the Germans. The fact that many of them did buy into Goebbel's vision led them to ruin, for that vision was inherently flawed.
Once Christianity became the established religion, it had a vested interest in protecting its new status and the established order. Christianity by its very nature teaches subser ...[text shortened]... on his face, or the atheist who doubted the Christian's faith and stayed inside the warm cabin?
18 Sep 03
1 edit
"Christianity by its very nature teaches subservience to the established order. They say that if you accept your wretched lot in life with humility and stoicism then you'll be rewarded with plenty in the "hereafter". I'm paraphrasing, of course, but that is the gist of it. Don't rock the boat here on Earth, and God will take care of you later." Rwingett
There are a lot of misconceptions about Christianity. This is one of them. Would you say Rwingett that I did not rock the boat on RHP. Did I accept my wretched lot on RHP or would you say I showed my teeth to a few persons who, in my opinion, were crossing some lines.
You have a very limited view on Christianity. Your interpretation is based on periods in history, or even nowadays, when the Christian faith was being misused by political and financial elites to strengten their position of power. It started when The Roman empire declared the Christian faith to be the religion of state. You can find another example of this in Schakespeares Richard III and many many more examples in history will show how the teachings of Christ were raped by dictators and other politicians of all kinds of stature. Now who is guilty of this crime ? The raper or the one who was being raped. You claim to argue in a rational way. Now what's it gonna be Rwingett ?
18 Sep 03
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingettYou seem to be suggesting that becoming a Christian makes your life worse in comparason to an athiest. You suggest that Christianity teaches you to be apathetic, not to try to better your human status and stay sprawled in the mud. This may have been true of the church in the past but not of Christianity, and not today I think.
No, belief in Nazism did not make life better for the Germans. The fact that many of them did buy into Goebbel's vision led them to ruin, for that vision was inherently flawed.
Once Christianity became the established religion, it had ...[text shortened]... o doubted the Christian's faith and stayed inside the warm cabin?
Christians I know don't work less hard to get what they want, but they do tend to be happier with what they do get. And beyond throwing in your job to become a missionary in the Amazon I can't think of examples where being a Christian would cause you to leave the warm cabin - the guys I talked of are out there in the misearble cold because that is life, not because Christianity or religeon put them there, so my money is still with frozen smiler rather than frozen grumpy guts 😉
As for Lot - maybe he didn't like her, and divorce was a bit tricky back then. Besides, if you believe that actually happened you must believe in God, so it doesn't hold as an example of Christians being unhappy due to following a false idol. If that is what you were saying - I may be reading too much into your quip.
<edit> I just read that the other guys both posted in the same minute as me - I hope you don't feel too picked on 😉. I'd also like to point out that I am also arguing from an athiest point of view (I assume Genius & Ivan are Christian) and not from a position of defensiveness or anger.
18 Sep 03
I deliberately left this thread alone overnight to see what would happen.
It's amazing that even on a thread started to expound on the futility of arguing about religion, some people still start arguing about religion again.
I guess it just confirms my view that people are mainly intransigent in this respect and will argue and argue and argue.
Amazing...
18 Sep 03
Originally posted by chewieI almost posted a message to say "I don't think this is where chewie wanted this thread to go..."
I deliberately left this thread alone overnight to see what would happen.
It's amazing that even on a thread started to expound on the futility of arguing about religion, some people still start arguing about religion again.
I guess it just confirms my view that people are mainly intransigent in this respect and will argue and argue and argue.
Amazing...
But I was actually waiting for you to come back and see what you had to say.
You opened another can of worms!
T
18 Sep 03
Originally posted by chewieThere is a reason that the "Religion (or lack thereof)" thread is among the longest in the RHP forums. Whether it does any good or not, people still like to debate (or argue) about things that matter to them. I see nothing wrong with that. If all the threads here consisted of only tedium* like in the "Longest thread", then there wouldn't be much point going to the forums at all.
I deliberately left this thread alone overnight to see what would happen.
It's amazing that even on a thread started to expound on the futility of arguing about religion, some people still start arguing about religion again.
I guess it just confirms my view that people are mainly intransigent in this respect and will argue and argue and argue.
Amazing...
*I am assuming that the "Longest thread" contains a lot of tedious banter, for I almost never go into that thread. I may be wrong.