Originally posted by belgianfreakYour reading something in my post that I did not say. I never said remove a culture, but remove the leader that stifles the culture. I don't expect to really change your mind, this can't be done. But we will go to war, and the world will be a better place afterwards ( there will be pain along the way ). You don't have to participate and you don't have to support it, but the foundation that you have to stand on to express your thoughts will be even stronger. You will have many to thank for defending that foundation, but those that deserve the recognition will not expect it or desire it.
You have no basis for saying that world peace & prosperity will improve if "rogue states" are removed. Maybe what you mean is US peace & prosperity, and that is still a statement based on no fact. If the whole world was like America (& western Europe?) then it probably would be safer, because everyone would have more similar views, cultures & would th ...[text shortened]... you eyes? (2) Current leaders ignored, why is the American way of life superior to the Arabian?
"World peace and prosperity will rise dramatically if countries like Iraq are controlled."
why? what about palestina and so many other fighting spots? and what do you mean by "controled"? controled by whom? by USA? why do you think you have the right to control other peole (countries)? do you think every single idea you have is right? and doesn't this make you a dictator yourself?
"They will remain chaotic and feed terrorism worldwide if not checked (to use a chess term)."
You can't fight terrorism, at least not with wars - the terrorist won't show themselfs on the battlefields. but you can do something against the reasons for terroris to exist.
"I believe we have plenty of reason to remove him."
by "we" you mean the US, right? and why the rest of the world should want the same? and what gives you the right to act without the UN (for it looks like this can easy happen)?
"We will be more secure here if we are successful."
"we" "here"? the security of the world wouldn't change much due to the removing of Sadam. the security in the US too. in fact, i don't even believe the security and prosperity in Iraq would change much.
"The world is full of dangerous EVIL people and there is no longer anywhere to hide from them. The true villains must be confronted , just as in a chess game, if you do not defend you will be crushed!"
"evil" is a subjective thing. of course you may claim that someone is evil, but you don't go and kill him for that - wouldn't that make you evil too? and as for dangerous people - i think Bush is way more dangerous than Sadam ever was or will be. and i don't agree with many of his decisions - should i kill him?
i'm a bulgarian, i'm nearer to this conflict and i don't want a war. to make the world peaceful you have to change some peoples mind (mostly politicians and dictators unfortunately - people with power) and this is not done by war.
From Atanas:
"You can't fight terrorism" ..... "to make the world peaceful you have to change some peoples mind (mostly politicians and dictators unfortunately - people with power) and this is not done by war.
From Heinrich Himler :
"The best political weapon is the weapon of terror. Cruelty commands respect. Men may hate us. But, we don't ask for their love; only for their fear"
This has been quite a thread. After Rich started it, I was mainly interested in hearing from those who experienced going to the peace rally. As I said before, I have never been a part of any type of protest march or rally. One day I may, but what has amazed me is that most of these protests were done peacefully and with little arrests. Too often you hear about such events being war zones in themselves. Thank you Rich, Trekkie, Maggoteer, legionnaire, and others for sharing your experience.
Of course, I have been able to hear much more than just about the peace rally. Knowing how many of you feel about this possible war and your thoughts on the whole situation, help me to understand a little more about each of you. This is a community and I respect the right of each individual to believe what they want. I may not always agree with what is said, but it's important that we all can share our thoughts and beliefs in a respectful way.
One thing that sticks out in my mind is that many of us are obviously living in societies that allow us the freedom to express our views and to openly speak out without fear of being silenced. Freedom is a wonderful privilege that many take for granted. It gives us the freedom to vote or not to vote. It allows us to speak out against the very thing many have died to give us. As long as ones freedom does not interfere with another’s, an individual can practice what they will within the guidelines of the law.
I am thankful for this country that I live in. My heart is touched by the fact that many have died to preserve the freedoms I enjoy. I give honor to them and cannot imagine what it would be like to throw myself into the path of the enemy for someone I will never know, to give no thought for myself, or to sacrifice my life for not only the ones who will be grateful for that sacrifice, but for the those who won’t even care. I am humbled at this unselfish act and feel unworthy, but I am grateful.
Many may feel that when someone protests among such great crowds that they are cowards. I say they are not because they have taken a step that many will not. I know of some who refuse to vote not because they are apathetic to what is happening, but because they feel this is their way of making a statement. Many may make phone calls, write letters to the editor, write those in authority, send money, or simply pray. Others may choose to do nothing. Freedom gives us these rights and who am I to deprive them of it.
For the record, I do vote and encourage everyone to. I’ve written letters, given money to causes, and support our leaders as much as I can. I don’t agree with everything that is being done and don’t feel it wrong to speak out against that which I feel is wrong, but one thing I need to do more of is to pray for those who lead us.
I realize I speak mostly of America, because that is where I am from, but many of you are from some great nations that hold the same values we do here. We are a part of a great world and everyone needs to do his or her part to make it safe.
This may seem like a way out, but I am still unsure as to what is the right thing to do in this whole situation with Iraq. War is a terrible thing and so is terrorism. The leaders of Iraq seem evil and bent on harming not only their own people, but also those who oppose them. I can’t forget what happened on September 11th, 2001. Innocent lives were lost and a nation was devastated. My wife and daughter now live in fear and I worry about the future. Though I believe God is still in control, I’m only human and can’t help but wonder what will happen next. I try to trust in those who lead and pray that God will give them guidance. I do not want to be in their position right now. I feel there is more to all this than what the media is sharing and hope that peace will prevail and if not, the right thing will be done.
I’m not trying to stir things up, but simply wanted to share my thoughts and thank those of you who have contributed to this thread. You’ve given me a lot to think about. You all have my respect.
Doug
You're right; terror is a very effective and cowardly way to wage war. But noone here is backing up terrorists (unlike the US support of the IRA for 25 years) - you are infering that Iraqi is a proven nest of terrorists, but there is no proof. And that is why we are opposed to war, because you can no more attack a country on suspicion than you can convict a man on suspicion of murder.
From Heinrich Himler :
"The best political weapon is the weapon of terror. Cruelty commands respect. Men may hate us. But, we don't ask for their love; only for their fear"
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If you want to start quoting Nazis then I'll repost something Bbar put out:
Hermann Goering
"Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ..Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
Does that sound familiar? Do you have someone telling you you must attack because you are under threat, but without proof? Are people who are against a war being called traitors with no patriotism who will allow the aggressors to continue? Should we really be arguing about who is going to stop Iraq, or should we start looking at current US foreign policy & wondering where it will stop?
We take history classes for a reason. If we don't know our history, it will repeat itself. A power hungry dictator like Hussein cannot be trusted or left to his own choices, otherwise we will see a greater war than the one we are about to enter. Sometimes you need to fight for peace.
Well said Doug! I applaud you for putting things in perspective. The vote is the key. Our founding fathers shed their blood and gave their lives so that their children (us) would have that right and not have to live under a dictatorship. Our years of peace and prosperity always began with a victory. Our history shows that those ideals will be tested from time to time. Some will come forward to defend , some will not.