22 Aug 03
Please don't just throw around word like "arbitrarily". None of my property attributions to God are arbitrary, they are mere repetitions of what I hear from the mouths of theists. It's theists that normally claim that God is omnibenevolent. If you think God lacks this attribute, then that is fine, the problem of evil will be dissolved. But what assurance will you then have that God will fulfill his covenant with believers?
Originally posted by Feivel
Once again I will ask you Bennett, how can we "arbitrarily" give God our idea of moral perfection? As best I can tell, by attributing God with our morals we are "limiting" God and therefore creating a new definition for God. Now if we can't attribute our idea of moral perfection to God, wouldn't that necessarily lead to the conclusion that our idea ...[text shortened]... to the natural laws he creates or could God operate outside them?
Feivel coming home today 🙁
Being unable to attribute the property of moral perfection to God does not lead necessarily to the conclusion that our idea of moral perfection is wrong. It only would do so if we were antecedently committed to the claim that the good is defined by God's will. But since it is the very existence of God that is at issue, any such claim would be hopelessly question begging. Our inability to attribute the property of moral perfection to God can lead just as easily to the conclusion that such being exists? This is so obvious I wonder how you missed it.
The rest I'll answer tomorrow. I'm just home from work and my wife wants me to come to bed.
Bennnett
22 Aug 03
Originally posted by bbarrBennett,
preventable suffering
I really can't wait to read your replies so here is another question for you, Can you please define preventable suffering? Also, would the suffering be preventable by us humans or by God? Also, is the preventable suffering preventable in our eyes only or is it something God desires preveted? Please keep in mind that what is desirable in one culture is not necissarily desirable in other cultures. Granted my question opens up another interesting topic "does God have desires (concern) for us"? Now the definition of preventable suffering should have been given at the first use of the term (but if it was, I would have nothing to post here). I am sorry to say that I do somewhat agree with IvanHoe. He calls it anger, I will not go that far but I will say bitterness. I am apt to believe that by preventable suffering you really have in mind "unjust" suffering or suffering that is desirable to prevent for "personal reasons."
Amici Sumus
Feivel the HardcoreFreethinker
22 Aug 03
Originally posted by royalchickenCan you just explain to me shortly why you cannot accept free will?
But you can have it both ways by eliminating the concept of god. This way, we can be undecided on the free will thing (although I tend not to be), and think of "preventable suffering" as a meaningless concept.
22 Aug 03
Originally posted by rwingettThanks for your post. Please do not be under the impression that I am trying to convince you of anything. I am a Christian and I believe in God and I believe in the word of Gad, the Bible. Now the Bible says that every human being is made with a measure of faith. And I think this is the key concept here, faith. People cannot convince you of the truth, but the Holy Spirit can. All humans are created with a conscience, but the Bible says that we can oppress our conscience and this is also akin to "hardening" your heart. Some poeple do not care one way or the other what the truth is, but other have "hardened" their heart against God, and this shows. They get angry when hearing or talking to Christians, they immediately turn away from Christian messages (Radio & TV) and they sometimes take some pleasure in that.
22 Aug 03
Originally posted by bbarrBBar. Again I am not following your argument. You see, you are not talking about human beings here. Even if you talked about human beings, culture shows that morals vary significantly through the world. Your arguments may be logical in a deductive and semantical sense, but your content is not. God gives human beings all they need to know in the Bible and also desires a personal love relationship with every human being. In fact the Bible says that people are dying (lost for salvation) because of a lack of knowledge.
A morally perfect being would want to prevent preventable suffering, no matter whose suffering it was. An omniscient being would know about the suffering and an omnipotent being could prevent the suffering. Since there are instances of preventable suffering, then if God exists he must lack one of these three attributes. You, as a theist, must choose which p ...[text shortened]... ny that there is preventable suffering. These are your only options, on pain of irrationality.
22 Aug 03
Originally posted by ReaperNow wait just a minute. Are you saying that if I get angry at a certain radio or television evangelist, I am hardening my heart? I would dare say, pick any Old Testament prophet and they would have a few things to say to many of these people. There are some messages that are worth turning away from. Now let me give you a specific example that I experienced earlier today in my work. I visited a dying patient and her church has convinced her that she will not die, but will be raptured because she is a woman of "faith." Now, privately, this woman is in anguish because she fears what her church will think aobut her if she dies. She says tht she will be a poor witness. This church has lied to her. They have distorted the truth of the Gospel as well as the truth of this woman's terminal condition. Most normal people would be angry that God is represented this way. What they teach her is that "death is of the devil." A clear distortion of reality and very worthy of our condemnation. Just because it comes form the church or a minister does not make it "the gospel." Kirk
Thanks for your post. Please do not be under the impression that I am trying to convince you of anything. I am a Christian and I believe in God and I believe in the word of Gad, the Bible. Now the Bible says that every human being is made with a measure of faith. And I think this is the key concept here, faith. People cannot convince you of the truth, bu ...[text shortened]... y turn away from Christian messages (Radio & TV) and they sometimes take some pleasure in that.
22 Aug 03
Originally posted by ReaperThe argument goes like this (you can draw your own conclusions as to its merits):
Can you just explain to me shortly why you cannot accept free will?
I haven't yet decided what I'll have for lunch today.
God, being omniscient, already knows what I'll have for lunch today.
Thus, while I may believe that I can choose what to eat, the fact that God already knows what I will eat means that I don't really have any choice.
22 Aug 03
Originally posted by kirksey957Kirk.
Now wait just a minute. Are you saying that if I get angry at a certain radio or television evangelist, I am hardening my heart?... A clear distortion of reality and very worthy of our condemnation. Just because it comes form the church or a minister does not make it "the gospel." Kirk
1. Not at all. I just mentioned some of the symptoms.
2. I agree 1000%. If someone distorts the truth then we should condemn it as such. That is why I condemn the gay lifestyle as sin. BUT I do not condemn the person.
22 Aug 03
Originally posted by richjohnsonThanks Rich. Can I just say that this is completely wrong. The mere fact that God knows what you are going to choose, and He does, does not in any way influence your choice. It is still your choice, and God is not preventing you from it. Now in some cases God does intervene, like say Jona. He chose not to go to Nineve, but God eventualy convinced him to change his mind.
Thus, while I may believe that I can choose what to eat, the fact that God already knows what I will eat means that I don't really have any choice.[/b]
Another example: The night of Jesus's hearing He told Peter that before the cock crows 3 times, he would disown Him 3 times. Now it happened this way. If someone warned you that you are going to do something, and you argue against it and still do it, I think shows that the final choice is always ours.
22 Aug 03
Originally posted by ReaperThe Devil made me do it.....
Thanks Rich. Can I just say that this is completely wrong. The mere fact that God knows what you are going to choose, and He does, does not in any way influence your choice. It is still your choice, and God is not preventing you from it. Now in some cases God does intervene, like say Jona. He chose not to go to Nineve, but God eventualy convinced him to ...[text shortened]... g, and you argue against it and still do it, I think shows that the final choice is always ours.
Phla-
22 Aug 03
Originally posted by ReaperFisrt off, "culture" doesn't show that moral codes differ between people, anthropology does that. Second, just because different people disagree on whether an act is right or wrong does not mean that there is ultimately no fact of the matter about the moral status of the act. You might as well say that since we believe that the planet is roughly spherical, and there is a tribe somewhere that believes the world is flat, it follows that there is no fact of the matter about the world's shape. But this would be ridicuolous. The name of the game here is argument, and you haven't presented one for cultural relativism, nor for your cliaim that the bible is the word of God. If I were to claim that the universe was created by hard-working and benevolent sprites, our claims would be on equal justificatory footing.
BBar. Again I am not following your argument. You see, you are not talking about human beings here. Even if you talked about human beings, culture shows that morals vary significantly through the world. Your arguments may be logical in a deductive and semantical sense, but your content is not. God gives human beings all they need to know in the Bible and ...[text shortened]... n fact the Bible says that people are dying (lost for salvation) because of a lack of knowledge.
22 Aug 03
Originally posted by bbarrOn pain of irrationaility,This is what I think.GOD is dead.
A morally perfect being would want to prevent preventable suffering, no matter whose suffering it was. An omniscient being would know about the suffering and an omnipotent being could prevent the suffering. Since there are instances of preventable suffering, then if God exists he must lack one of these three attributes. You, as a theist, must choose which p ...[text shortened]... ny that there is preventable suffering. These are your only options, on pain of irrationality.
GOD is dead unless you start beliving that GOD lives.
Have faith.Be Irrational.Don't give up hope.
Life is for this world not the next.
Linda