Some special relationship...

Originally posted by StarValleyWy
Joe...

Glad you jumped in. My first interest in the bio-centric nature of morality came from an article in the Atlantic Monthly by Edward O. Wilson. I am bothered a bit by the fact that he is a deist, but his overall argument and apologia in laying out the brain as the center of morality were to me very powerful. Imperisism pure and simple, but I am ...[text shortened]... that moral codes are devised to conform to some drives of human nature and to suppress others.

Thanks for the long reply Mike - There is indeed mounting evidence for some sort of genetically endowed moral reasoning code, cited by Pinker as you mention in the Blank Slate. I'm sorry if I seemed so angry in the previous post, sometimes it gets my back up when "facts" get bandied about (please forgive my bile, it's easy to write long reams of polemic when you can't actually converse face to face ... 😉) You are correct regarding Phineas Gage, and the vast majority of orbitofrontal damage cases. These people do indeed suffer from impulsivity, a lack of insight into their own behaviour, mood swings, and have serious problems with moral reasoning, but I don't believe at this point it is fair to say that this area subserves moral reasoning per se - The mental faculties required for moral reasoning (insight, impulse control, prediction of rewarding outcomes) are in some respects supported by this patch of cortex, and thus the whole edifice will come crashing down after damage to this area, but to locate "moral reasoning" in one region of the brain doesn't tell the whole story. Viewed like this, it's difficult to conclude that this function is innate (in the sense that it was an adaptation that conferred a selection advantage on those that had it) since it requires so much more basic machinery to function - The evidence for its inclusion in human nature comes from the evolutionary psychology camp, who try to infer the design of the mind from reasonable assumptions about the types of environmental challenges humans faced when we were still evolving under natural. Evolutionary psychology is controversial right now, Pinker is certainly an advocate, but I do recommend that you read "Alas, Poor Darwin" by the Roses for the other side of the argument....

Originally posted by kyngj
Thanks for the long reply Mike - There is indeed mounting evidence for some sort of genetically endowed moral reasoning code, cited by Pinker as you mention in the Blank Slate. I'm sorry if I seemed so angry in the previous post, sometimes i ...[text shortened]... r Darwin" by the Roses for the other side of the argument....

Joe,

Thanks. I will get it on my reading list. I really appreciate your expertise in this matter. It is extremely difficult to try to keep up with all the information in todays world. I would be lying if I told you i understand a tenth of what's out there concerning the mind, and what people are putting forth. Wilson and crowd (social psychologists) ... have my vote over the "read-write" crowd ... in my limited abilty to judge. I am waiting for a blend of the two, in the next 10 years though. I think that the truth almost inevitably lies somewhere right in the middle of the two points of view. I can't believe the postmodern deconstruction point of view because of a sentence like... "Last week my cousin fired his Mechanic". If their (pm deconstructionists) view of stereotypes were correct, We would have to say that the sentence has no meaning. "Last Week" certainly has no "picture or object" that has been planted into us by evil bourgeoise capitalists. Just the fact that they always get back to the same political stance turns me off. I can't for the life of me see where politics has anything to do with anything under discussion, but it always does in their writings. I wonder if it isn't a failed attempt at profundity? ... anyway back to my sample sentence which i feel totally makes my world safe from media manipulation... "my cousin" ... we all see something here, granted... (Is he a rum runner? A billionaire with hundreds of cars? A high school kid with a scooter?) but again it is an extracted concept. "fired" implies a million visions in a million minds. Some will see an angry shouting match, others a calm discussion of things gone wrong. ad infinitum. "mechanic" invokes even more images, just as the deconstructionist would have us believe. I might see a very good looking babe in coveralls ... you might see an older guy in grease stained pants. The miracle of mind is that when taken as a "sentence" of transactional thought, all people are able to understand that my cousin's vehicle(s) , be they auto,airplane or boat... are no longer under the care of the fired mechanic. We have not been deceived by stereotypes that i can tell. We have exchanged valid information.

Anyway, thanks again, and I appreciate your putting up with my own less than expert speculations.

Mike