06 Sep 11
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobiewhite needs to play b3, Bb2 to stop d5 before he can play d3?
why did not Bobby play ...d5 instead of ...d6, after Nd2 Nc6, e4 and e5! black is better, i think. for example,
[pgn] [Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "?"] [Black "?"] [Result "*"] [PlyCount "14"] 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 g6 3. Bg2 Bg7 4. O-O O-O 5. d3 {A very typical move in the KIA } d5 6. Nbd2 Nc6 {although the masters t ...[text shortened]... Golombeck} 7. e4 e5 {and black has the dream centre of two adjacent pawns}[/pgn]
07 Sep 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAfter ...d5 white has c4.
why did not Bobby play ...d5 instead of ...d6, after Nd2 Nc6, e4 and e5! black is better, i think. for example,
[pgn] [Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "?"] [Black "?"] [Result "*"] [PlyCount "14"] 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 g6 3. Bg2 Bg7 4. O-O O-O 5. d3 {A very typical move in the KIA } d5 6. Nbd2 Nc6 {although the masters t ...[text shortened]... Golombeck} 7. e4 e5 {and black has the dream centre of two adjacent pawns}[/pgn]
07 Sep 11
Originally posted by tomtom232what? look my dear friend, the point of departure for white is move 5, he must choose,
After ...d5 white has c4.
either 5.d3 the KIA proper or transpose to a 5.d4 line, with which he will hardly be able
to retain any kind of initiative. c4 merely plays into blacks hands, it weakens the
central dark squares, thank you very much, weakens the long diagonal increasing the
scope of blacks King Bishop, thank you very much, and the pawn can never be
retained on c4 for the square is weakened due to whites bishop being place on g2
rather than the more classical f1-a6 diagonal.
07 Sep 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI'd play 5. c4, or even 4. c4 as there is no urgent need to castle yet. The pawn arrives on c4 before black chucks a spanner in the works with d5. Now my knight can go to c3 instead of d2, I can play d3 or d4 according to what foolishness black cooks up or just leave the d-pawn at home until I am absolutely certain what I want to do in the centre. Not a KIA but that's the point, you don't have to follow a bad line just because it has a particular name attached.
what? look my dear friend, the point of departure for white is move 5, he must choose,
either 5.d3 the KIA proper or transpose to a 5.d4 line, with which he will hardly be able
to retain any kind of initiative. c4 merely plays into blacks hands, it weakens the
central dark squares, thank you very much, weakens the long diagonal increasing the ...[text shortened]... weakened due to whites bishop being place on g2
rather than the more classical f1-a6 diagonal.
07 Sep 11
3 edits
Originally posted by Diophantusoho! retrograde analysis now that you know our plan! How dithpicable! 😛 c4 simply
I'd play 5. c4, or even 4. c4 as there is no urgent need to castle yet. The pawn arrives on c4 before black chucks a spanner in the works with d5. Now my knight can go to c3 instead of d2, I can play d3 or d4 according to what foolishness black cooks up or just leave the d-pawn at home until I am absolutely certain what I want to do in the centre. Not a K he point, you don't have to follow a bad line just because it has a particular name attached.
doesn't work, it appears to me to transpose to a kind of reti, we shall simply play d5
regardless, if you swap the pawns off, we retake and white will have given our bishop
some scope. It appears to me that the weakness of the white set up is that by
choosing to develop as he has done, he gives black a free hand to get a grip on the
central dark squares.
07 Sep 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobiec4 does work if you happen to like the English or Reti. Anyone playing 1. Nf3 has to like those as otherwise they are going to suffer a lot of pain by insisting that e4 MUST be played. In this position playing c4 before black plays d5 makes sense because white gets to apply pressure to d5 - one of the aims of the English. I'd prefer it if I hadn't been stupid enough to plonk that knight on f3 in the first place though, then the bishop blasts down the diagonal and makes the pressure on d5 more apparent. However, black has the same problem - his knight sitting on f6 blocks his g7 bishop's line of fire. You can have the central dark squares for now, I'll take the light squares.
oho! retrograde analysis now that you know our plan! How dithpicable! 😛 c4 simply
doesn't work, it appears to me to transpose to a kind of reti, we shall simply play d5
regardless, if you swap the pawns off, we retake and white will have given our bishop
some scope. It appears to me that the weakness of the white set up is that by
choosin ...[text shortened]... develop as he has done, he gives black a free hand to get a grip on the
central dark squares.
07 Sep 11
The point Fishcer was making has sailed right over your head.
Black does not play d5 it is committal - White now has something to do.
He can play around Black's d5.
Here White has to think of something and Bobby reckons Black can react
in a favourable manner. It's the Zugswang the extra tempo carries.
Of course I have read the article and played over the game. 😏
You can disagree with him if you want. Many did.
But don't put moves he never played on the board.
It's akin to the 'White's game is in its last throes." after 1.e4.
There is minor dispute as to who actually stated that first.
As always Edward Winter is on hand to try and clear things up.
http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/breyer.html
07 Sep 11
1 edit
Originally posted by greenpawn34I think Robbie is trying to persuade me that I lose because I am white and the sainted Fischer said that white is worse in one position.
The point Fishcer was making has sailed right over your head.
Black does not play d5 it is committal - White now has something to do.
He can play around Black's d5.
[fen]rnbq1rk1/ppp1ppbp/3p1np1/8/8/3P1NP1/PPP1PPBP/RNBQ1RK1 w - - 0 6[/fen]
Here White has to think of something and Bobby reckons Black can react
in a favourable manner. It's the Zug hand to try and clear things up.
http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/breyer.html
07 Sep 11
3 edits
Originally posted by Diophantusmeh, its a pawn move at best, we can play ...d5 regardless. I dont care what Fischer
c4 does work if you happen to like the English or Reti. Anyone playing 1. Nf3 has to like those as otherwise they are going to suffer a lot of pain by insisting that e4 MUST be played. In this position playing c4 before black plays d5 makes sense because white gets to apply pressure to d5 - one of the aims of the English. I'd prefer it if I hadn't been st ...[text shortened]... 's line of fire. You can have the central dark squares for now, I'll take the light squares.
said, everyone in the whole world knows the queen pawn belongs on queen four! Plus,
plus, you are applying these assertions to positions other than the one that was posted
by the green one.
07 Sep 11
5 edits
Originally posted by greenpawn34No it did not sail over my head, i just have my own mind and see no reason, no not
The point Fishcer was making has sailed right over your head.
Black does not play d5 it is committal - White now has something to do.
He can play around Black's d5.
[fen]rnbq1rk1/ppp1ppbp/3p1np1/8/8/3P1NP1/PPP1PPBP/RNBQ1RK1 w - - 0 6[/fen]
Here White has to think of something and Bobby reckons Black can react
in a favourable manner. It's the Zug hand to try and clear things up.
http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/breyer.html
even the reason that Fischer gave to put ones queen pawn on queen three rather than
queen four where it belongs. I even demonstrated with reference why it was superior,
you may make reference to that. As for being committal? to put ones pawn on an
already protected square in the centre is committal? I think not, putting ones pawns
however on queen or king three is certainly no less committal, just ask any Frenchie!
But don't put moves he never played on the board?????? ill put moves wherever i like
Mr. Greenpawn! you may call it an act of vandalism, if you like! Its a sad day when
one cannot question why such and such a move was played, unless of course you
have a monopoly on the interpretation of chess positions?
07 Sep 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou should strive to know your opponents plan at all times... if he happens to tell you then your work is that much easier. 😛
oho! retrograde analysis now that you know our plan! How dithpicable! 😛 c4 simply
doesn't work, it appears to me to transpose to a kind of reti, we shall simply play d5
regardless, if you swap the pawns off, we retake and white will have given our bishop
some scope. It appears to me that the weakness of the white set up is that by
choosin ...[text shortened]... develop as he has done, he gives black a free hand to get a grip on the
central dark squares.
07 Sep 11
2 edits
Originally posted by greenpawn34Not really GP, my question was , Why did Fischer not play an immediate ...d5, which as
Hi Robbie.
Here.
[fen]rnbq1rk1/ppp1ppbp/3p1np1/8/8/3P1NP1/PPP1PPBP/RNBQ1RK1 w - - 0 6[/fen]
Fishcer was saying White was in zuggers.
You are looking at.
[fen]rnbq1rk1/ppp1ppbp/5np1/3p4/8/3P1NP1/PPP1PPBP/RNBQ1RK1 w - d6 0 6[/fen]
Which was not what Fishcer was looking at.
OK go your own way if you want to and look at a completely differe sition you claim is better even with the correct tempo. It is Black to play. I like it.}[/pgn]
your post indicates was answered by the statement that he felt white was in zuggers,
which is fair enough. I fully grasped and understood that. My own was not intended
as a refutation, or vandalism or anything to do with Fischer in reality, merely an
observation of the position. Why it should be seen in any other light i cannot say.
For Breyer to assert and Reti to quote that white was in trouble after 1.e4 was highly
amusing!