04 Mar 07
Originally posted by Squelchbelchhow could black have a good position without white having a bad one? - a good position is defined as having an advantage over the enemy.
I didn't say "bad" for white, I said "strong for black". Once he has moved the knight back to c3 what exactly has white achieved in the position here after both castle?
[fen]rn1q1rk1/1p2bppp/p4n2/2pp4/3P4/2N2N2/PPP1QPPP/R1B2RK1 b - - 0 11[/fen]
if both players have "good" positions then the game is equal.
White achieves a playable position.
04 Mar 07
Originally posted by SquelchbelchYes, but it has a better record on gamesexplorer for 1400+ than 2. d3 from which white can get into the main line of the closed Sicilian.
Oh I forget the order of events. I must be getting old😳
With 1400+ players white has a shocking record with 2.Bc4 in the Sicilian on this site. I suspect that the gamesexplorer record is a reasonably accurate assessment of its merits!
It's pointless strong players saying this & that opening is actually fine because they always tend to challeng ...[text shortened]... s against this opening - I encounter it with monotonous regularity as it is thanks, Shinidoki!
The point is that with correct play white shouldn't be at a disadvantage. It's not a matter of clawing it back (well, ok. in our game it is, but I don't think my 3. e5 was as clever as I thought it was at the time...) it's just that it's equal and this isn't usually what white is after. The 1400+ players who do it are trying to attack when they don't have an advantage to do it from. It is the kind of thing that you can't be inaccurate with after you've played it. As far as I can tell it was quite common to do this in the 19th century, but they eventually worked out that the bishop was better off on g2 supporting the e4 pawn in closed Sicilian set ups. Besides it's almost certainly possible to transpose into a Sozin, which is a good line.
After 1. a4 certainly, but most 2,200 players stay being 2,200 players by not following up with things like 2. h4.
I have to admit I'm quite bored of seeing it too. There's no doubt that the main lines are more interesting. It's not bad, it's just tedious.
04 Mar 07
Originally posted by SquelchbelchMy arguement isn't that 2.Bc4 is powerful, hell, i'm not even saying its a good move -- but what I am saying is that its playable.
Flip the board & after 11.Re8 be honest, on balance wouldn't you rather be black?
having a little think, I probably would prefer black, but my preference, is only a slight one.
04 Mar 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ShinidokiWell I agree, it's playable for you against me. But not many of us would dare play it against a stronger opponent because of the crucial loss of tempo at some early stage.
My arguement isn't that 2.Bc4 is powerful, hell, i'm not even saying its a good move -- but what I am saying is that its playable.
having a little think, I probably would prefer black, but my preference, is only a slight one.
Can someone with an engine zap the postion & give us a score?
1.e4...c5
2.Bc4...e6
3.Nc3...Nf6
4.Nf3...d5
5.exd5...exd5
6.Bb5+...Bd7
7.d4...Bxb5
8.Nxb5...a6
9.Qe2+...Be7
10.Nc3...0-0
11.0-0...Re8
04 Mar 07
Originally posted by SquelchbelchI have the game in chessmaster 10k now but I dont know how to check who has a better position, if someone can tell me I would be happy to help.
Well I agree, it's playable for you against me. But not many of us would dare play it against a stronger opponent because of the crucial loss of tempo at some early stage.
Can someone with an engine zap the postion & give us a score?
1.e4...c5
2.Bc4...e6
3.Nc3...Nf6
4.Nf3...d5
5.exd5...exd5
6.Bb5+...Bd7
7.d4...Bxb5
8.Nxb5...a6
9.Qe2+...Be7
10.Nc3...0-0
11.0-0...Re8
04 Mar 07
zapping it through as I type, though i should say 3 things:
1) engines aren't great at analyzing opening positions
2) white & blacks moves leading to that postion may not have been optimal
3) different engine will probably score it differently.
Fritz 8:- thinks 12. dxc5 is -0.03 @ depth 15
04 Mar 07
2 edits
Originally posted by SquelchbelchI wouldn't play it against anyone normally, 2. Nf3 is better, that's different from it being bad.
Well I agree, it's playable for you against me. But not many of us would dare play it against a stronger opponent because of the crucial loss of tempo at some early stage.
Can someone with an engine zap the postion & give us a score?
After 2 minutes Crafty gets to 15 ply and gives the score as -0.07 (12. Bg5 Nc6 13. dxc5 Bxc5 14. Qd3 d4). Absolutely dead level.
Edit: The same as Shinidoki got with Fritz, but they suggest different moves.
04 Mar 07
Originally posted by Squelchbelchbecause the cool kids on da block play 2. Nc3 and 3. g3!!
Why go to all this hassle of limping toward a possible draw as white when you can just play 2.d4, 2.c3 or 2.f4 instead to avoid Sicilian theory?
and now black resigns because theory just got avoided in such a big way
his tiny, little Sicilian warped mind can't comprehend the awesomeness of 3. g3
it just blew him away
he resigns, goes home, and sucks his thumb in a dark corner
all those playing me as black with 1. ... c5 in mind...
know your closed sicilian theory...
i will play it... using transpositions if you try to lead me astray when necessary
beware!!
muahahahahahahaha!!!!
05 Mar 07
Originally posted by DeepThoughtWell my line probably wasn't the strongest - just one that looked very straightforward from black's POV.
I wouldn't play it against anyone normally, 2. Nf3 is better, that's different from it being bad.
After 2 minutes Crafty gets to 15 ply and gives the score as -0.07 (12. Bg5 Nc6 13. dxc5 Bxc5 14. Qd3 d4). Absolutely dead level.
Edit: The same as Shinidoki got with Fritz, but they suggest different moves.
Thanks anyway 😀
05 Mar 07
Originally posted by SquelchbelchI had a look online and there's very little about it. If you're haveing problems then it could be that it's fussy about pgn format, so you might have to take out the extra dots squelchbelch put in so that 1.e4...c5 ---> 1. e4 c5 and so on.
Isn't there a manual or booklet explaining it?
05 Mar 07
Originally posted by ShinidokiAh, the famous Morhpy Game is very similar.
2. Bc4 is not a bad move.
Game 2788382
anyway, your post reminded me of a lovely trap i like to use.
[fen]rn1qkbnr/ppp2ppp/3p4/4p3/2B1P1b1/5N1P/PPPP1PP1/RNBQK2R b KQkq - 0 4[/fen]
Bxf3 Qf3 --- setting up that very famous mate in 4 trap.
and its here where lots of players go wrong. -- they play Nf6 (instead of Qe/d7) and then bam! Qb3!
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Bg4 pinning the knight.
4.dxe5
Now black is thinking 4...dxe5 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 6.Nxe4 and the bishop and f7 pawn are attacked. Black can't let that happen. So:
4...Bxg4 5.Qxf3 dxe5 6.Bc4
Very similar position.
If 6...Nf6 7.Qb3
[Event "Paris"]
[Site "Paris"]
[Date "1858.??.??"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "P Morphy"]
[Black "Duke Karl/Count Isouard"]
[ECO "C41"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "34"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Bg4 {This is a weak move already.--Fischer}
4.dxe5 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 dxe5 6.Bc4 Nf6 7.Qb3 Qe7
8.Nc3 c6 9.Bg5 {Black is in what's like a zugzwang position here. He can't
develop the [Queen's] knight because the pawn is hanging, the bishop is
blocked because of the Queen.--Fischer} b5 10.Nxb5 cxb5 11.Bxb5+ Nbd7 12.O-O-O Rd8 13.Rxd7 Rxd7
14.Rd1 Qe6 15.Bxd7+ Nxd7 16.Qb8+ Nxb8
17.Rd8# 1-0
05 Mar 07
1 edit
Originally posted by SquelchbelchI don't see Bc4 as so bad.
I was talking about 2.Bc4 in a Sicilian game.
So how do you play against 1.e4...c5, 2.Bc4...e6 without losing a tempo & central control early on after black plays 3...d5😕
I notice on gamesexplorer that white loses around 2/3 of games after 2Bc4😀
Maybe I'm just not agressive enough against it in the opening.