Doubled isolated pawns - Please help!

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Let's say Black avoids the stalemate. In that case, I think White wins by forcing the Black King up the board.

1... Kb1 2. Be3 Ka2 3. Kc2 Ka3 4. Bd4 Kb4 5. Kb2 Kb5 ?

And if Black keeps getting pushed up the board, White's King will squeeze in and win the f7 pawn. The desperate try 5...c3+ 6. Bxc3+ Kc4 7. Kc2 d4 8. Be1 d3+ 9. Kd2 Kd4 10. Bf2+ Ke4 11 ...[text shortened]... complex ending, so it is possible I have missed something, but I like White's chances so far.

Thanks SwissGambit, very interesting!

I looked at it, well, I'm actually still looking at it. I hoped to find a brilliant way to prove to myself that this was actually a draw, but honestly I can't.
The question I'm asking myself on this line is if the bishop in d4 can both hold the pawns and stop the black's king from going to oscillate between g7 and g8 (at that point I don't see how white can force a win, but I might very well be missing something).

I agree with you on the case the king being stalemated, but in the line you give in the quoted text, how would the game proceed after 5. Kb2 Kb5 ? It seems to me that in order to win white will need his king around f7, and his bishop on the a3 f8 diagonal. But in this case can't black just advance his passed pawns, even without the support of his king?

Thanks again for the time you spent on this. I'll study the position further and try to come up with some lines...

Cheers,

J34

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Chess would be so much easier if only the opponent would hold still while you are executing your plan.

12...Be7 13.Qa4 Bf6 14.Rac1 Kb8 [Can't take d4 unless you're willing to let wQ into a7] 15.Rc5 Qd6 16.Rfc1 Nxd4 17.Bxd4 Bxd4 18.Nxd4 Qxd4 19.Qxd4 Rxd4 20.Rxc7 and White is doing just fine. The 'weak' doubled pawns also allowed White to get counterpla hite's funeral on move 10 seems premature, although I tend to agree that Black is better.

You put the finger where my puzzlement is. Honestly, who would want doubled isolated pawns on the d-file out of the opening? I don't know anybody who actually plays to obtain them... and still, my opponent managed to get a nice game out of them. Sure, I helped him a lot, as Ragnorak correctly pointed out, by misplacing my bishop and not putting the pressure that I could have put... but your line seems to imply that despite black being a bit better, white could have equalized in any case, if I understand it right.
Now, I know that equalizing is what black strive for, and is no big achievement for white, but still, if we admit that white, saddled with doubled isolated pawns, has at most to just give away the first-move advantage - well, this means to me either that the first-move advantage must be huge (and at my level of play, I know that's usually just a small advantage), or that the doubled isolated pawns is actually not such a bad structure after all.

Thanks for posting SwissGambit.

J34

Originally posted by Mad Rook
There was another thread the other day about the value of doubled and tripled pawns, and an article on doubled pawns by Larry Kaufman was referenced. Larry mentions that normally doubled, isolated pawns are fairly bad, but if the major pieces (rooks and/or queen) are still on the board, then the doubled, isolated pawns aren't devalued nearly as much. And in ...[text shortened]... t was probably the main reason why you were finding it so hard to cash in on White's weakness.

Interesting, I'll look for the reference and read it, thanks for pointing that out.

It's also interesting how the presence of heavy pieces favors the person with the D.I.P.s (my personal acronym for Double Isolated Pawns). I guess it make sense, because this way he can get to use the open files at the sides of the DIPs, and maybe using the space granted by the DIPs to double the rooks without being harassed. But in another way it's counterintuitive, since the heavy pieces will have a very hard time protecting the front pawn of the DIPs, while both minor and major pieces of his opponent can be aimed at it.

Thanks again for posting and thanks for the advice on the opening. I'm looking again at c4, after recovering from the amused shock that the line I've been considering to play actually lose a piece for me. c4 is uncomfortable for black, but I'm not sure how the game would proceed after the retreat of the black's queen. After all, the threat Nc2 is still on, and just castling can be tricky for white, it seems to me. a very quick line with castling for white (I hope this makes marginally more sense than the last one I posted):
8.c4 Qd6 9. O-O Nc2 10. Rb1 Nxd4 ... well, something like that in any case. But white might have something better then 9. O-O, I should look more into it. I looked briefly at 9.c5 Qd5, but I'm not sure this is good for white.

Thanks

J34

Originally posted by Joan34
Interesting, I'll look for the reference and read it, thanks for pointing that out.

It's also interesting how the presence of heavy pieces favors the person with the D.I.P.s (my personal acronym for Double Isolated Pawns). I guess it make sense, because this way he can get to use the open files at the sides of the DIPs, and maybe using the space granted by ...[text shortened]... looked briefly at 9.c5 Qd5, but I'm not sure this is good for white.

Thanks

J34

Here's the article:
http://danheisman.home.comcast.net/~danheisman/Articles/doubled_pawns.htm

After 8.c4 Qd6, I don't think 9.c5 is bad for White, but 9.Qa4+ is maybe better for White and keeps things interesting.

Originally posted by Mad Rook
Here's the article:
http://danheisman.home.comcast.net/~danheisman/Articles/doubled_pawns.htm

After 8.c4 Qd6, I don't think 9.c5 is bad for White, but 9.Qa4+ is maybe better for White and keeps things interesting.

Thanks for the link!

You must be reading my mind! I was just looking at the line 9.Qa4+ c6 but I cannot find anything better for white than 10. O-O Nc2 11. c5 Qd5 12. Rb1 where white looses the exchange, it seems to me. But again, I'm ready to be proven wrong one more time...

Thanks

J34

Originally posted by Joan34
Thanks for the link!

You must be reading my mind! I was just looking at the line 9.Qa4+ c6 but I cannot find anything better for white than 10. O-O Nc2 11. c5 Qd5 12. Rb1 where white looses the exchange, it seems to me. But again, I'm ready to be proven wrong one more time...

Thanks

J34

actually, 10. c5 might be embarrassing for black, isn't it?
I start wondering if my attachment to Nb4 is pure stubbornness after all...
ok, one last go at it, and then I'll have to admit that Nb4 was rubbish:
8.c4 Qd8 (I have already a stomachache because of this reverse development) 9. Qa4+ c6 10. O-O Nc2. Does this win the exchange for black? And is the exchange enough to make up for the lack of development?

Originally posted by Joan34
Thanks for the link!

You must be reading my mind! I was just looking at the line 9.Qa4+ c6 but I cannot find anything better for white than 10. O-O Nc2 11. c5 Qd5 12. Rb1 where white looses the exchange, it seems to me. But again, I'm ready to be proven wrong one more time...

Thanks

J34

9.Qa4+ c6 10.c5, and now Black has two pieces attacked (queen and knight), and the knight has to be lost.

Originally posted by Mad Rook
9.Qa4+ c6 10.c5, and now Black has two pieces attacked (queen and knight), and the knight has to be lost.

yep, you're right, see my previous post for my last idea on this (we must have started writing about at the same time)! But I have to say, my hopes that Nb4 actually works are not very high anymore...

Originally posted by Joan34
actually, 10. c5 might be embarrassing for black, isn't it?
I start wondering if my attachment to Nb4 is pure stubbornness after all...
ok, one last go at it, and then I'll have to admit that Nb4 was rubbish:
8.c4 Qd8 (I have already a stomachache because of this reverse development) 9. Qa4+ c6 10. O-O Nc2. Does this win the exchange for black? And is the exchange enough to make up for the lack of development?

If 8.c4 Qd8 9.Qa4+ c6, then White just grabs the knight: 10.QxNb4.

And if 8.c4 Qd8 9.Qa4+ Nc6, then 10.d5 attacks the pinned knight.

You didn't mention 8.c4 Qd7, which is maybe Black's best defense. 9.Ne5 keeps the pressure on Black. (Black's not doing badly, but White has successfully defended against the 7...Nb4 attack.)

Originally posted by Mad Rook
If 8.c4 Qd8 9.Qa4+ c6, then White just grabs the knight: 10.QxNb4.

And if 8.c4 Qd8 9.Qa4+ Nc6, then 10.d5 attacks the pinned knight.

You didn't mention 8.c4 Qd7, which is maybe Black's best defense. 9.Ne5 keeps the pressure on Black. (Black's not doing badly, but White has successfully defended against the 7...Nb4 attack.)

The refreshing feeling of having tried and failed! Yes, you converted me Mad Rook, Nb4 8.c4 looks better for white than for black, hence Nb4 should not have been played. Does that mean that 7. Be2 is actually not a bad move for white? It seems so, since black seems to have no way to exploit the weakness on c2.
In a way, it's reassuring that the rule of thumb (Don't move the same piece twice in the opening!) holds. Well, except when it doesn't, of course - but this was probably not one of those cases....

Thanks for posting on this game Mad Rook.

Cheers

J34

Originally posted by Joan34
The refreshing feeling of having tried and failed! Yes, you converted me Mad Rook, Nb4 8.c4 looks better for white than for black, hence Nb4 should not have been played. Does that mean that 7. Be2 is actually not a bad move for white? It seems so, since black seems to have no way to exploit the weakness on c2.
In a way, it's reassuring that the rule of thumb ...[text shortened]... ably not one of those cases....

Thanks for posting on this game Mad Rook.

Cheers

J34

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that 7...Nb4 definitely shouldn't have been played, I'm just saying that I'd prefer to to develop pieces at this point instead of launching an iffy attack. I guess the one advantage of this attack is that it forces White to come up with good defensive moves to fend off the attack. If White blunders in defending, then I guess you could say that the attack was justified. 😉

I think 7.Be2 was an OK move for White. I can't find anything wrong with it.

Originally posted by Joan34
Thanks SwissGambit, very interesting!

I looked at it, well, I'm actually still looking at it. I hoped to find a brilliant way to prove to myself that this was actually a draw, but honestly I can't.
The question I'm asking myself on this line is if the bishop in d4 can both hold the pawns and stop the black's king from going to oscillate between g7 and g8 ...[text shortened]... . I'll study the position further and try to come up with some lines...

Cheers,

J34

Hmm. Squeezing in is not so simple. 5.Kb2 Kb5 and now it looks too risky to go for Ka3/Bb4 because Black will just push ...d4. If White doesn't go for something like this, Black has ...Ka5 and ...Kb5 ad infinitum.

If 6.Kc3, Black just shuffles back and forth from a4 to b5. Again, White cannot squeeze with Bb4 because ...d4+ wins the Bishop.

So again, alert pawn pushes get Black out of trouble. Looks like this line holds the draw after all.

Originally posted by Joan34
You put the finger where my puzzlement is. Honestly, who would want doubled isolated pawns on the d-file out of the opening? I don't know anybody who actually plays to obtain them... and still, my opponent managed to get a nice game out of them. Sure, I helped him a lot, as Ragnorak correctly pointed out, by misplacing my bishop and not putting the pressure t ...[text shortened]... ns is actually not such a bad structure after all.

Thanks for posting SwissGambit.

J34

I can think of two Bobby Fischer games off the top of my head where he deliberately allowed his pawn structure to be weakened to get other advantages, like more rapid development, or initiative. I will try to look them up later on.

It's not that the doubled isolated pawns are not a bad a structure, it's that they may bring other compensating advantages, like open files.

Another poster was claiming that Black wins easily by simply attacking the isolated pawns. My line was not intended to prove that White could equalize against any Black continuation; it was mainly to show that it is premature to say that Black is winning on move 10-13.

Even the Bishop placement bit - notice how, in the haste to attack d4, Bf8 lost control of the c5 square, which led to a White Rook making use of it. This suggests that Black should first secure the Queenside. Try to minimize White's counterplay. The weak d-pawns will still be there later on.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I can think of two Bobby Fischer games off the top of my head where he deliberately allowed his pawn structure to be weakened to get other advantages, like more rapid development, or initiative. I will try to look them up later on.

It's not that the doubled isolated pawns are not a bad a structure, it's that they may bring other compensating advantage ...[text shortened]... ueenside. Try to minimize White's counterplay. The weak d-pawns will still be there later on.

SwissGambit, thanks for coming back with more suggestions. If you can find the two Fischer games you were referring too I'd like to see them.

Very interesting point about securing the queenside. If you allow me to (over)generalize (mis)using chess terms: I should have looked first at the dynamic feature (white's effective queenside play through the open c file and a good control over it thanks to the pawns in the d file) of the position and address them, and only after that try to exploit the static feature ( the weakness of the front pawn of the doubled structure). It's interesting though how both the dynamic and the static features where strongly dictated by the pawn structure. It's probably always like that, but to a player of my level of strength this is often not so visible in "natural" structures, while in this unnatural one it strike me as very prominent.

Thanks again!

J34

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Hmm. Squeezing in is not so simple. 5.Kb2 Kb5 and now it looks too risky to go for Ka3/Bb4 because Black will just push ...d4. If White doesn't go for something like this, Black has ...Ka5 and ...Kb5 ad infinitum.

If 6.Kc3, Black just shuffles back and forth from a4 to b5. Again, White cannot squeeze with Bb4 because ...d4+ wins the Bishop.

So again, alert pawn pushes get Black out of trouble. Looks like this line holds the draw after all.

SwissGambit, a question I'm asking myself is: was 36. ... Nxd4 sound?

It seems from the game that black can get at least a draw out of it. Can he win though? If he avoids exchanging the a pawns and goes for the kingside, does black have a chance?

I guess the other question that comes to mind is: does he have a better plan? After all black's knight looks better then white's bishop...
(honestly I couldn't really stop myself from playing the sac, it looked too tempting...).

Thanks for the time you spent on this.

Logging off for the weekend

J34