03 Mar 09
3 edits
Originally posted by duecerThis is why I say the strong center is an illusion. The d pawn cannot advance 1. ....d4 2. pxp pxp 3. Rg1d1 and the pawn is pinned. The pawn may be advanced but it's also isolated and poorly protected, especially when white plays Ne2. Then there's still the problem of protecting the f5 pawn.
I'm just a lowly patzer, but I like ...d4. it opens the exchage and will throw the knight off the c3 square, but more importantly it opens the diagonal for blacks light square bishop effectively saying "let's rumble"
The actual game was played in 1904 where black was then world champion. He made the mistake of going after the white bishop and lost in entertaining style. In this game, you'll see how much stronger white's center is.
08 Mar 09
1 edit
Originally posted by heinzkatWhite pieces are placed more active and harmonic - they have better development, strong passed pawn in center and at the moment Black needs to solve following problems:
It's about time to evaluate these evaluations 🙂
1) How to protect f5 pawn
2) How to find good square for their knight who is displaced on e8.
Unfortunately counter-attack with 1.. g5? and 2...f4? did not work - Lasker (Black) have tried it and was crushed by Schlechter (White) - buffalobill have posted that game already.
In my opinion the most logic plan for Black would be 1...g6 (protecting f5) with 2...Ng7 (overprotecting f5 and moving knight to better square) and then await what White will do - as Black can`t afford to be active.
08 Mar 09
1 edit
Originally posted by KorchWhite's pawn structure is worse and the passer e does not seem dangerous as it is easily blocked - I would still maintain that white is worse and I think Black can prepare d4 as stated in my previous post - of course white can prevent d4 I think by bringing a knight to f4, but even after an exchange of knights, which would probably would not suit Black, I would think the position equal.
White pieces are placed more active and harmonic - they have better development, strong passed pawn in center and at the moment Black needs to solve following problems:
1) How to protect f5 pawn
2) How to find good square for their knight who is displaced on e8.
Unfortunately counter-attack with 1.. g5? and 2...f4? did not work - Lasker (Black) have tri ...[text shortened]... knight to better square) and then await what White will do - as Black can`t afford to be active.
I don't see break points into the Black position which would lead to advantage for white.
Thanks for the thread, btw, the positions are interesting.
08 Mar 09
Originally posted by YugaIt`s serious mistake to consider that pawns on c5 and d5 gives advantage as (some guys have already pointed out in this thread) "Black has better center" is only illusion - moving c5-c4 will give up d4 square and d5-d4 will only create isolated pawn on d4 which will need to be protected. While you will spent time on g6-Ne8-g7-e6 do you think that White will make no moves awaiting for Black to act?
White's pawn structure is worse and the passer e does not seem dangerous as it is easily blocked - I would still maintain that white is worse and I think Black can prepare d4 as stated in my previous post - of course white can prevent d4 I think by bringing a knight to f4, but even after an exchange of knights, which would probably would not suit Black, I would ...[text shortened]... uld lead to advantage for white.
Thanks for the thread, btw, the positions are interesting.
About "better pawn structure" - can you show good plan for black how to attack some of White pawns? I don`t, but I see that f5 in that "better pawn structure is weak and needs to be protected with g6 which makes weaker Black squares. I would not call such pawn structure as "better".
08 Mar 09
2 edits
Hmm, not so simple either. Black has a doubled and an isolated pawn. The bishop is inactive with not much scope for maneouvring into a better position. His position is defensive and his weak point lies in his pawn base on the black squares.
White's pawn structure is more solid but doesn't seem to have much potential for advancement. The knight has more activity - but not a lot. Overall, white has a very solid position with a small advantage but needs to maximise the knight's potential and to make space for it to have a greater influence, to attack the pawn base and overwork the defence.
But how?
For now, I can only see that black can play defensively and wait to see what white does. A problem for black is that the bishop needs to protect the c4 square against the knight's invasion.
08 Mar 09
1 edit
Originally posted by KorchSure, g6 weakens dark squares around the King but the position is closed and white has no real targets or any obvious ways to improve his position. White has no real kingside advantage - moves like g4 are easily met.
It`s serious mistake to consider that pawns on c5 and d5 gives advantage as (some guys have already pointed out in this thread) "Black has better center" is only illusion - moving c5-c4 will give up d4 square and d5-d4 will only create isolated pawn on d4 which will need to be protected. While you will spent time on g6-Ne8-g7-e6 do you think that White wil th g6 which makes weaker Black squares. I would not call such pawn structure as "better".
My contention regarding pawn structure is that the pawn on e5 isn't going anywhere whereas Black may play for d4, although with proper play, I would be skeptical if this possibility is easy to actualize.
g6-Ne8-g7 [better than Ne8-c7 perhaps because of g4]-e6 takes time but I do not see how white can exploit this time advantage - the position is closed and white has no way to open the position to advantage unless Black committs positional suicide and I do not think exchanges would significantly change the evaluation of the position given Black's sound structure. Probably after an exchange of knights it would be difficult to see how either side could gain advantage.
c5-c4 should not be considered d5-d4 is only practical should recapture be possible by a piece.
Of course the position is equal but I think the Black position more preferable. I think white would like a knight on f4 but I am not sure about the best piece placement for both sides.
Edit: I should note that if d4 is not really feasible, I think white is better due to the passer e pawn but only with a symbolic advantage and Black's position would not be too difficult to defend.
09 Mar 09
Originally posted by YugaWith the temporary closure of the King side, I'd then put pressure on the d5 pawn starting with a rook on d1 (noting the potential pin on the Queen), the idea being to follow up with e4. If Black's d5 pawn goes, his centre evaporates.
Sure, g6 weakens dark squares around the King but the position is closed and white has no real targets or any obvious ways to improve his position. White has no real kingside advantage - moves like g4 are easily met.
My contention regarding pawn structure is that the pawn on e5 isn't going anywhere whereas Black may play for d4, although with proper play, I ...[text shortened]... but only with a symbolic advantage and Black's position would not be too difficult to defend.
09 Mar 09
Originally posted by KorchTo me it appears Black has a disadvantage, although he has the "good" Bishop... White's Knight however makes a stronger impression as it might be harassing the Black pawns from all directions. Also White's Rook is better placed as it has the open file where Black is not allowed to go to f8 due to immediate pawn loss. My plan would be Bf7-Re6-Kf8-Ke7, but probably White plays something nasty then to disrupt this - yes, Nc4 after Re6. Hmm... is there something else to centralize the King?
[fen]4r1k1/p5p1/2p1b2p/2p1p3/3pP3/1P1P3P/P1PN2P1/5RK1 b - - 0 22[/fen]
Black to move.
10 Mar 09
It`s obvious that Black have defensive position due to worse pawn structure and bishop, useless for attack in closed positions like this, where knight usually are stronger than bishop. The question is "Have White good plan how to exploit disadvantages of Black position?". Black main weaknesses are their weak queen side pawns (a6 c6 and c5) and pawn on e5 (as Bishop can`t defend that pawn) and if White can attack both of these at the same time they should win. Attacking e5 is no problem - White just need to place knight on f3 and give black no chance to drive him away which is possible (after h3,g4 and Kg3). Attacking queen side pawns also is possible with Rc1 and c3. So we can conclude that White have winning position.
Here is the game:
10 Mar 09
Originally posted by KorchI thought we were required to find a drawing plan... Perhaps Bf7... Rd8... Rd6... Rf6 followed by the centralization of the King...? 🙂
It`s obvious that Black have defensive position due to worse pawn structure and bishop, useless for attack in closed positions like this, where knight usually are stronger than bishop. The question is "Have White good plan how to exploit disadvantages of Black position?". Black main weaknesses are their weak queen side pawns (a6 c6 and c5) and pawn on e5 (as B ...[text shortened]... 2 Rb5 40. Kc2 Kg7 41. a4 Rb7 42. Rc5 Rf7 43. Rxa5 Rf2+ 44. Kc1 1-0
[/pgn]
10 Mar 09
1 edit
Originally posted by heinzkatPlease read the title of this thread "Evaluate this position". In evaluating position it`s important to see possible plans for both sides.
I thought we were required to find a drawing plan... Perhaps Bf7... Rd8... Rd6... Rf6 followed by the centralization of the King...? 🙂