31 Jul 10
Originally posted by cmsMaster
[pgn][Event "ICC"] [Site "Internet Chess Club"] [Date "2010.07.30"] [White "Me"] [Black "kriegspiel"] [Result "1-0"] [WhiteElo "**"] [BlackElo "**"] [TimeControl "180+0"] 1. e4 e6 2. b3 d5 3. Bb2 f5 4. exd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nf6 6. Qe2+ Be7 7. Nc3 O-O 8. O-O-O c6 9. Ng5 Bd6 10. Ne6 Ne4 11. Nxd8 Rxd8 12. Nxe4 fxe4 13. Qh5 Rf8 14. Qg5 Rf7 15. Be2 Nd7 16. f3 Nf6 17 ...[text shortened]... Bxg4 22. Qxg4 Rf8 23. Qe6+ Rf7 24. Qxf7+ Kh8 25. Qe8+ Bf8 26. Rxf8# 1-0[/pgn]
Two games of interest as an interesting response to the French. First is a 5-0 blitz, second is a 15-0 standard. In game two 8.e5 is an error but that can be attributed to me and not the opening. Sorry about the many errors in each game, but these are all I had in my very new ICC collection.
31 Jul 10
1 edit
Originally posted by cmsMasterBlack is actually playing a defense championed by the English Master J. C. Thompson in the 1950's, and it is considered a forerunner of the Hippopotamus Defense, which Spassky made famous in his match against Petrosian. It's not really a French if black doesn't follow up with ...d5.
[pgn][Event "ICC"] [Site "Internet Chess Club"] [Date "2010.07.30"] [White "**"] [Black "**"] [Result "1-0"] [WhiteElo "**"] [BlackElo "**"] [TimeControl "900+0"] 1. e4 e6 2. b3 f6 3. Bb2 Nh6 4. Nc3 Nf7 5. d4 Be7 6. Qd2 O-O 7. O-O-O b6 8. e5 fxe5 9. dxe5 Bb7 10. Nf3 d5 11. exd6 Qxd6 12. Be2 Qxd2+ 13. Rxd2 Nc6 14. Kb1 Rad8 15. Rhd1 Rxd2 16. Rxd2 Nfe5 17. Nb ...[text shortened]... ny errors in each game, but these are all I had in my very new ICC collection.
Paul
Colonial Britophile, Historian Wannabe, and Opening Nomenclature Pedant
31 Jul 10
Originally posted by Paul LeggettAre you saying that ECO is wrong? I think all ECO requires for the French Defense is 1.e4 e6.
Black is actually playing a defense championed by the English Master J. C. Thompson in the 1950's, and it is considered a forerunner of the Hippopotamus Defense, which Spassky made famous in his match against Petrosian. It's not really a French if black doesn't follow up with ...d5.
Paul
Colonial Britophile, Historian Wannabe, and Opening Nomenclature Pedant
What's the name of this defense if it's not the French?
31 Jul 10
Originally posted by Mad RookIt's a transposition issue of which many gameviewers,and also DB's,suffer.
Are you saying that ECO is wrong? I think all ECO requires for the French Defense is 1.e4 e6.
What's the name of this defense if it's not the French?
Example,try these lines at 365chess.com:
A) 1.e4 e6 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2 dxe4
B) 1.b3 e6 2.e4 d5 3.Bb2 dxe4
Twice you'll reach this position:
Yet the DB will tell you
A = French,Réti (Spielmann) variation C00
B = Nimzo-Larsen attack A01
So which is it?Your pick
toet.
31 Jul 10
1 edit
Originally posted by toeternitoeI don't really know anything about these transposition issues (except that I know they exist). So let me ask the simple question (I'm a simple person, after all 🙂 ) - Is there an accepted convention that says whether it should be A or B?
It's a transposition issue of which many gameviewers,and also DB's,suffer.
Example,try these lines at 365chess.com:
A) 1.e4 e6 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2 dxe4
B) 1.b3 e6 2.e4 d5 3.Bb2 dxe4
Twice you'll reach this position:
[fen]rnbqkbnr/ppp2ppp/4p3/8/4p3/1P6/PBPP1PPP/RN1QKBNR w KQkq - 0 4[/fen]
Yet the DB will tell you
A = French,Réti (Spielmann) variation C00
B = Nimzo-Larsen attack A01
So which is it?Your pick
toet.
Edit - Or maybe a better way of phrasing the question is, once you reach the end of the opening, should the opening classification of that game depend upon the path taken during the opening (transpositions), or strictly by the final position at the end of opening theory?
31 Jul 10
Originally posted by Mad RookOK, I did a little searching, and I think I can answer my own question. It's the latter case. (final position only).
Edit - Or maybe a better way of phrasing the question is, once you reach the end of the opening, should the opening classification of that game depend upon the path taken during the opening (transpositions), or strictly by the final position at the end of opening theory?
I learned more about transpositions than I'll ever want to know from this 1999 "The Kibitzer" article by Tim Harding:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kibitz36.txt
31 Jul 10
Originally posted by Mad RookI'm no opening guru either.I just know the naming gets confusing when different openings merge.
OK, I did a little searching, and I think I can answer my own question. It's the latter case. (final position only).
I learned more about transpositions than I'll ever want to know from this 1999 "The Kibitzer" article by Tim Harding:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kibitz36.txt
I don't understand how it can be the final position.
Which is it then in the example I gave?Is that a French or Nimzo-Larsen position?
which name would get preference and why?
To me it's simply both.
But don't get too hung up on names,it's not that important.They're just to make life easier.
Imagine you're at the bar discussing your last tourney game
"Yesterday I played the white side of the 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 O-O Be7 6 Re1 b5 7 Bb3 O-O 8 c3 d6 opening"
or
"Yesterday I played the white side of the closed Ruy Lopez"
Which do you prefer? 😉
toet.
31 Jul 10
2 edits
Originally posted by toeternitoeWell, I was actually more interested in how a game gets officially classified for the databases. Of course, when you discuss a game like this, you'd probably want to say how it started out and how it transposed into a different opening.
I'm no opening guru either.I just know the naming gets confusing when different openings merge.
I don't understand how it can be the final position.
Which is it then in the example I gave?Is that a French or Nimzo-Larsen position?
which name would get preference and why?
To me it's simply both.
But don't get too hung up on names,it's not that im I played the white side of the closed Ruy Lopez"
Which do you prefer? 😉
toet.
The juicy info in Harding's article was this paragraph:
"The correct process to classify a game accurately should be to play
through the game backwards from the end, checking after each
move retracted whether the position then arising matches a position
in the Informator opening key (with the same player to move). If it
does, then the keycode associated with that position is the ECO
classification for that game. If not, retract another move and try
again, repeating this process until a position in the classification is
reached. Assign that code and stop. It's a simple algorithm for the
computer to follow, and all it requires is that the positions in the
key are correctly assigned."
I don't have the Informator opening keys, but I ran the two lines you gave through my GUI's opening book, and although the lines changed at times, they both ended up as A01 Nimzo-Larsen Attack.
Edit - My apologies to the OP. In hindsight, I guess I should have started a new thread instead of hijacking this one. 😞
31 Jul 10
Originally posted by Mad RookAh,official.Not my cup of tea 😛
Well, I was actually more interested in how a game gets officially classified for the databases. Of course, when you discuss a game like this, you'd probably want to say how it started out and how it transposed into a different opening.
The juicy info in Harding's article was this paragraph:
"The correct process to classify a game accurately should be ...[text shortened]... hindsight, I guess I should have started a new thread instead of hijacking this one. 😞
Thread returned.
toet.
31 Jul 10
Hi Mad Rook
I've noticed that you do have a trendancy to hijack threads.
I think this is because you either do not know how to start a new one
or lack the imagination to come up with a catchy title. 😉
(This from the king of thread hi-jackers...) 😳
Saw this though.
"Are you saying that ECO is wrong? "
I know you are referring to opening classification but I have a book
called 'ECO Busted'
535 refutations, re-evaluations, novelties, improvements and corrections to ECO.
01 Aug 10
2 edits
Originally posted by Mad RookNo I am not saying ECO is wrong (I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are asking to be informed, not being sarcastic), because ECO makes no such claim.
Are you saying that ECO is wrong? I think all ECO requires for the French Defense is 1.e4 e6.
What's the name of this defense if it's not the French?
1. e4 e6 could become a French Defense, but it could also become a Franco-Benoni, a pure Benoni, or a Sicilian after 2. d4 c5 instead of 2. ... d5 (think 1. e4 e6 2. d4 c5 3. Nf3 cxd4 with a Sicilian, although Black may very well instead offer the Marshall Gambit with 3. ...d5, entering French territory again).
If black responds with 2. ... b6, it would be called the English Defense. It could also turn into a Pribyl Defense or a Hippo after 2. ... d6.
I would say the vast majority of games end up as French Defenses (it's what I expect when I see 1. e4 e6), but it's no more defined at that stage than 1. e4 e5- in both cases, it is too early to put a label on it.
The position with ...Bg7 and ...Nh6-f7 is what J.C. Thompson called the Hippo in his book The Hippopotamus Chess Opening, published in 1957. The definition of the Hippo has changed over time, and his theories are considered esoteric, to be polite.
I usually call the opening what it is from the position it reaches, but I will note the move order as I describe it. For instance, Bobby Fischer played 1. e4 e6 2. d3 against the French, and he would follow with 2. ...d5 3. Nd2 c5, 4. Ngf3 Nf6, 5. Bg2 Be7, and 6. 0-0, reaching what is referred to as a King's Indian Attack from a French move order, as opposed to arriving in the same position after 1. Nf3 d5.
01 Aug 10
You have missed out the Petrof/French connection.
The Exchange French.
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. Nf3 Nf6
The Petrof
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. d4 d5
This is the French Exchange a tempo up even though Black went d7-d6-d5.
(is the tempo up of benefit, is the Knight on e4 good or bad?)
01 Aug 10
Originally posted by Paul LeggettI often joke around and use sarcasm, but this time I was sincere and serious. Every ECO list I hit on the internet lists 1.e4 e6 as the French Defense. My MCO-14 also classifies 1.e4 e6 as the French Defense. FCO does the same. My chess GUI's opening book also classifies 1.e4e6 as the French Defense. In fact, I have yet to see it classified as anything else.
No I am not saying ECO is wrong (I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are asking to be informed, not being sarcastic), because ECO makes no such claim.
I'm just trying to understand this stuff. (Maybe I'm a bit overly interested in this because I just started studying the French Defense.)