Ha ha.
Now you know what happens if the you take the a-pawn, you
don't take the a-pawn.
You cannot take back moves (especially moves that I give you) 😉
Hi Meph.
Yes but it's all a fairy story but it's a good one with a happy ending.
All I wanted to do was show the ideas in the postion and that is all
we can do when when playing. Have ideas.
If we get enough people looking at this position then I'm sure one day
we will have it nailed. But it's not what would have happened.
So I figured I'll give a stab at what may have happened.
1 edit
Originally posted by orion25White's idea, along the lines of what GP showed is to eliminate black's defenders on the kingside. The bishop would go to d1-h5-e8 to eliminate the knight on c6, allowing the other bishop to come to e7 to eliminate the knight on f8, which then frees the way for a continuation like GP showed.
Hi mephisto. I'm an under 1700 and I did not consider Qc7, but I'm also not sure I understand why that would be such a good move, please elaborate.
Now, if black refrains from playing on the queenside too soon (he still has the option to do that later) he can put his two rooks on the b-file (ready for a queenside action) and the queen on c7 would prevent the above maneuvre. He could answer Be8 with Rc6 and still cover e7 if white exchanged the bishop for the knight on c6. The queen on c7 is well placed for other defensive actions as well, and the road to the queenside is still not far away.
That would be my defense as black in case white played Bd1 as first move (probably his best), hoping for white to over-estimate his position and go down in the endgame to follow because of a weak queenside.
2 edits
I'm seeing either Rfb1 to challenge the b file... looses that a pawn though or a clumbsy rook lift with Rfe1-e3-g3 but I haven't looked at what black can do besides move his rook and snag that bishop. edit: The problem is, besides the obvious of time consuming, is that it weakens the back rank but all I've found is 20. Re1 Rb2 21. Re3 Rxc2 22. Rg3 Rxa2 23. Rf1 black probably has something better than this though. edit2: white doesn't really have much of an attack here either unless someone else can see something, I was just grasping at straws for an attack i didn't expect to work.
1 edit
Originally posted by greenpawn34in the continuation you give in the PGN board in this post,
Hi O.
I'm going to give what I think is a plauasible continuation between
two under 1700 players.
If you want ultra perfect evaluation - run it through a box.
(but then it's not your game anymore is it?).
It has instructive moments.
Going to let Black run with his Queenside play as White attack does
not look anything till it's too late.
.Bxf8 Kxf8 8. Qxh7 Qd2 9. Ng6+ Kf7 10. Nh8+ Kf8 11. Qh4 Ke8 12. Ng6 Kd7 13.Qe7[/pgn]
surely any player over, say, 1300 (?, im guessing here) would have found 12. ...Rc7 instead to nullify the mating threat? then the black king escapes to the much safer queenside.
Originally posted by tomtom232You can save a move doing this maneuver with the a rook. The idea looks interesting with Nh4 looming and some mating patterns in the air.
I'm seeing either Rfb1 to challenge the b file... looses that a pawn though or a clumbsy rook lift with Rfe1-e3-g3 but I haven't looked at what black can do besides move his rook and snag that bishop. edit: The problem is, besides the obvious of time consuming, is that it weakens the back rank but all I've found is 20. Re1 Rb2 21. Re3 Rxc2 22. Rg3 Rxa2 23 ...[text shortened]... lse can see something, I was just grasping at straws for an attack i didn't expect to work.
Originally posted by greenpawn34HEY! I'm not taking moves back, I never took that pawn! And why would I? I can always do so later!
Ha ha.
Now you know what happens if the you take the a-pawn, you
don't take the a-pawn.
You cannot take back moves (especially moves that I give you) 😉
Hi Meph.
Yes but it's all a fairy story but it's a good one with a happy ending.
All I wanted to do was show the ideas in the postion and that is all
we can do when when playing. Have i ...[text shortened]... not what would have happened.
So I figured I'll give a stab at what may have happened.
But yes, you are right, very precise play is required for black not to fall for something like that.
Originally posted by Mephisto2Hi mephisto, thanks for explaining, it seems clear for me now what you mean and I agree that this is probably the best continuation for black. Not sure I would have played that though OTB, 1st I wouldn't come up with the idea, and 2nd, if I did I'd rule it out in favour of the weaker Ne7.
White's idea, along the lines of what GP showed is to eliminate black's defenders on the kingside. The bishop would go to d1-h5-e8 to eliminate the knight on c6, allowing the other bishop to come to e7 to eliminate the knight on f8, which then frees the way for a continuation like GP showed.
Now, if black refrains from playing on the queenside too soon ...[text shortened]... o over-estimate his position and go down in the endgame to follow because of a weak queenside.
1 edit
Originally posted by orion25To be honest, I think that in OTB play, I would probably have run into over-hasty queenside action myself as black. It's like following a quiz, the questions always seem easier from my chair, lol.
Hi mephisto, thanks for explaining, it seems clear for me now what you mean and I agree that this is probably the best continuation for black. Not sure I would have played that though OTB, 1st I wouldn't come up with the idea, and 2nd, if I did I'd rule it out in favour of the weaker Ne7.
Originally posted by tomtom232I'm not sure about that idea, I think black's attack on the queenside gets too strong, black can for instance try and bring both rook too the 2nd rank etc etc. I think that is clear for everyone. But the general idea might be interesting combined with the Be1-h5 manoeuvre or even the g4 move.
I'm seeing either Rfb1 to challenge the b file... looses that a pawn though or a clumbsy rook lift with Rfe1-e3-g3 but I haven't looked at what black can do besides move his rook and snag that bishop. edit: The problem is, besides the obvious of time consuming, is that it weakens the back rank but all I've found is 20. Re1 Rb2 21. Re3 Rxc2 22. Rg3 Rxa2 23 ...[text shortened]... lse can see something, I was just grasping at straws for an attack i didn't expect to work.
Originally posted by orion25I have seen posters favour 1.g4, but when I look at it more closely, I am not so sure:
I'm not sure about that idea, I think black's attack on the queenside gets too strong, black can for instance try and bring both rook too the 2nd rank etc etc. I think that is clear for everyone. But the general idea might be interesting combined with the Be1-h5 manoeuvre or even the g4 move.
1.g4 fxg4 2.Qh5 (Qxg4? Qxc3!) Rxf4! 3.Bxf4 Qxc3 and white has nothing better than 4.Bxh7 Qh3! 5.Bg6+ QxQ 6.BxQ Nxd4
and I would favour black here
Originally posted by Big Orange CountryHi Big O.
in the continuation you give in the PGN board in this post,
surely any player over, say, 1300 (?, im guessing here) would have found 12. ...Rc7 instead to nullify the mating threat? then the black king escapes to the much safer queenside.
When you log on you will always see 3 checkmates.
Very often you see the games of Zenic. I've no idea why?
However if you just look at his mates you will see a fair number involve
mates in one completely over looked.
(the lad has B+N mates down to fine art, I've seen two and only looked
at the first few pages of his games)
You say you guess at 1300.
I think you are right if you are talking about an OTB 1300.
An OTB 1300 has some battle experience and can spot basic mating patterns.
But an established 1300 on here is a different chess player.
They move far too quickly and a lot are just casual players with
no board craft at all.
Here is one example of Zenic's mates.
There was another one I was looking for but this is a fairly standard one idea
mating pattern that was completely missed.
White is in check. If I tell you White mates Black 3 moves later
you can see what happened even before you see what happened.