Only Chess
26 Jan 07
26 Jan 07
I'm not comfortable with the idea of databases or engines being used in any shape or form during games, and in any case it seems pointless when you regard rhp primarily as a means to become better at OTB chess. I use books occasionally (and inconsistently) to learn opening lines, but even that's done with the intention of dropping the crutch later on once I've learned it.
26 Jan 07
Originally posted by AmauroteWould you, then, advocate that one never use an engine if one plays here?
I'm not comfortable with the idea of databases or engines being used in any shape or form during games, and in any case it seems pointless when you regard rhp primarily as a means to become better at OTB chess. I use books occasionally (and inconsistently) to learn opening lines, but even that's done with the intention of dropping the crutch later on once I've learned it.
26 Jan 07
Originally posted by WulebgrDuring games? Absolutely. I suppose the analogy would be drugs in athletics and the distinction between illegal stimulants and legitimate recovery treatments like creatine, but however the morality ultimately pans out, I must admit to feeling uneasy about it. That said, if it works for other people, great, good luck to them - it just feels like defeating the entire point to me.
Would you, then, advocate that one never use an engine if one plays here?
26 Jan 07
Originally posted by AmauroteHave you deliberately missed the entire point of this thread or are you just plain dumb?
During games? Absolutely. I suppose the analogy would be drugs in athletics and the distinction between illegal stimulants and legitimate recovery treatments like creatine, but however the morality ultimately pans out, I must admit to feeling uneasy about it. That said, if it works for other people, great, good luck to them - it just feels like defeating the entire point to me.
26 Jan 07
I may have missed the answer, but here's a situation that bothers me and I think DF mentioned it, but I don't remember hearing any answers to it.
You're playing a game, using DB, let's say at move 4 you decided to do some analysis on where you think the game's going to go in the next few moves. You open Fritz, analyze, and create lines for where the game may go. Is this cheating?
26 Jan 07
Originally posted by cmsMasterI say yes and that's what my previous posts are about. Read those.
I may have missed the answer, but here's a situation that bothers me and I think DF mentioned it, but I don't remember hearing any answers to it.
You're playing a game, using DB, let's say at move 4 you decided to do some analysis on where you think the game's going to go in the next few moves. You open Fritz, analyze, and create lines for where the game may go. Is this cheating?
To me what DF wrote and what you said plainly is the samething.
If you weren't playing that game then you wouldn't be analysing those lines. You intention is to cheat.
26 Jan 07
Originally posted by AmauroteTherein lies the rub. Some of us like to use engines to analyze all or most of our finished games, and there is never a time when we don't have ongoing games.
During games? Absolutely. I suppose the analogy would be drugs in athletics and the distinction between illegal stimulants and legitimate recovery treatments like creatine, but however the morality ultimately pans out, I must admit to feeling uneasy about it. That said, if it works for other people, great, good luck to them - it just feels like defeating the entire point to me.
The purity you call for seems impossible.
Furthermore, engine use is not the only inappropriate assistance; consulation with other players is also a no no. By your standards, correspondence players could never analyze finished games.
26 Jan 07
Originally posted by RahimKI don't think it is before move 10 or so.
I say yes and that's what my previous posts are about. Read those.
To me what DF wrote and what you said plainly is the samething.
If you weren't playing that game then you wouldn't be analysing those lines. You intention is to cheat.
26 Jan 07
Originally posted by cmsMasterWhat?
I don't think it is before move 10 or so.
You are talking about the position in the game? Opening, middlegame, ec...?
Doesn't matter when it is during the game.
You have a position in your current game. You make some reasonable moves for both sides and now you have a possible position 5 moves down the line. You analyse from there.
By chance both of you play the exact same moves and reach the same position. Now you are set and win because you had outside help even though you might not have deserved it.
And how far down the line should you go? Fast forward 5 moves and then start analysing? why not go 2-3 move ahead? Where do you draw the line.
I say it's cheating, I can't remeber the title of my thread otherwise I would dig it up again. Very similar to this one.
26 Jan 07
1 edit
Originally posted by WulebgrI'm in no shape or form a moral purist when it comes to chess, but I'm very much in favour of taking breaks from correspondence games and using that hiatus to analyze, annotate and if necessary use Fritz. The dilemma Dragon Fire raises therefore doesn't really manifest for me, although it has become more difficult since I dropped clan games for siege play.
Therein lies the rub. Some of us like to use engines to analyze all or most of our finished games, and there is never a time when we don't have ongoing games.
The purity you call for seems impossible.
Furthermore, engine use is not the only inappropriate assistance; consulation with other players is also a no no. By your standards, correspondence players could never analyze finished games.
26 Jan 07
Originally posted by RahimKLet's say you are playing an opponent who loves to trade down to the endgame. So, before the game, you do engine analysis of Rook and pawn endings, and King and pawn endings, just to brush up. No problem, right?
I say yes and that's what my previous posts are about. Read those.
To me what DF wrote and what you said plainly is the samething.
If you weren't playing that game then you wouldn't be analysing those lines. You intention is to cheat.
Now, fast forward to move 10. Queens are traded. Is the player still ethically allowed to study R+P endings with an engine?
How about after move 20 when a few minor pieces are traded?
In other words, how close must the engine study come to the actual game before the studying is deemed unethical?
And that's without introducing the complication of previous games.