29 Sep 12
Originally posted by queenabberOh dear, i suspect i'm opening a can of worms by bringing him into this. Don't forget, Carlsen has not reached his peak yet. It's easy to forget, the guy became no1 aged 19! Most chess players, like most sportsmen, peak mid-late 20's. I take your point, he hasn't dominated the top 4, but neither did Kasparov, or Fischer, or Karpov, or anyone else for that matter.
Mentioning Carlsen in these conversations is ridiculous. He is unquestionably good at grinding down random 2650 to 2750 but for me he is totally unproven at gaining at edge against the very best: no match history etc. He can dress it all he likes but he bottled it from the recent world champ cycle to maintain he no. 1 in the ranking and his aura of being the "best" player in the world in some peoples' superficial eyes, for marketing reasons!
I'm not sure how feasible it is for any one player to really start crushing all in his wake these days. Elite players have developed a number of openings (The Berlin and Petrov being two shinning examples) to such a degree that forcing a win is almost impossible. If you stuck Fischer against Kramnik and got them to play 100 games in either of these openings, i'd be surprised if Fischer scored more than one or two wins.
If you look at a lot of Carlsens games against the top four over the last few years, you'll see that the t4 often resort to such openings when playing him. What you said about him beating up lower rated players to score his tournament victories is true, but how does that separate him from Kasparov who did precisely the same thing? Lets see what happens when the Candidates tournament starts. Whoever wins that will, imo, become World champion. Carlsen will be the favourite, lets see if he can prove his no1 status or not.
29 Sep 12
Originally posted by MarinkatombI agree with you. Even though I do not know a great deal about the young fellow, I am very impressed with his ranking at such a young age. And He can play blindfold chess too, as well as excellent speed chess. I would not count him out as being among the very greatest chess players in history, just yet.
Oh dear, i suspect i'm opening a can of worms by bringing him into this. Don't forget, Carlsen has not reached his peak yet. It's easy to forget, the guy became no1 aged 19! Most chess players, like most sportsmen, peak mid-late 20's. I take your point, he hasn't dominated the top 4, but neither did Kasparov, or Fischer, or Karpov, or anyone else for tha ...[text shortened]... champion. Carlsen will be the favourite, lets see if he can prove his no1 status or not.
30 Sep 12
Originally posted by RJHindsI don't think there's a GM alive you can't play blindfold, i can do that. I did see him playing a blindfold simultaneous display, now that's impressive!
I agree with you. Even though I do not know a great deal about the young fellow, I am very impressed with his ranking at such a young age. And He can play blindfold chess too, as well as excellent speed chess. I would not count him out as being among the very greatest chess players in history, just yet.
Originally posted by MarinkatombI am not gifted to have any chess vision at all. I must see the actual board and the pieces or I am lost. I could never keep track of where all the pieces had moved. If only OTB chess allowed an analyze board on the side like they do for real blind players. On second thought, I think they can only feel the pieces though and not actually move them unless the same move is made on the opponents board.
I don't think there's a GM alive you can't play blindfold, i can do that. I did see him playing a blindfold simultaneous display, now that's impressive!
- Joined
- 18 Jan 07
- Moves
- 12477
30 Sep 12
Originally posted by RJHindsI'm sorry, but your answer has been disapproved by the chess community. Sanity is not allowed in debates like this - even less once the name "Fischer" has been dropped.
Is the question really -- Who has the best Chess mind between Fischer and Kasparov? That would just be a guess. However, to know for sure and be fair they must be born at the same time. So we are never going to know the answer.
Richard
30 Sep 12
The fact is no matter how much we speculate or discuss there is no
way you can determine how players from the older generation
would fare today and visa versa.
To make it a level playing field you have to mind wipe the players going
back and mind boost the players coming from the past.
Of course if you could find a bunch of exact same positions
where for example Fischer found the winning combination but
the modern player failed then you could have a good argument for Fischer.
(Especially as all modern GM’s know or should be at least familiar
with Fishers games, this would make it doubly embarrassing.)
I know of one famous case where a player failed to find a prize
winning combination and instead agreed a draw.
Mikenas - Kashdan Prague Olympiad 1931
Janowski - Chajes New York 1916.
The exact same position was reach through a different order of moves.
Mikenas took the draw. 15 years previously Janowski took the win.
01 Oct 12
Originally posted by greenpawn34I have to say, that is very missable! Definitely deserves a brilliancy!! 😀
The fact is no matter how much we speculate or discuss there is no
way you can determine how players from the older generation
would fare today and visa versa.
To make it a level playing field you have to mind wipe the players going
back and mind boost the players coming from the past.
Of course if you could find a bunch of exact same positions ...[text shortened]... is now Qh7 mate.} 13... Rh8 14. Qh7+ Rxh7 15. Rxh7# {Hook mate and a Brilliancy Prize.}[/pgn]
- Joined
- 18 Jan 07
- Moves
- 12477
05 Oct 12
Originally posted by moonbusYeah, but don't forget that we should be allowing Morphy, sorry, Fischer to learn the new stuff as well, and also Kasparov to have seen all the games new-Fischer played against later opponents including Karpov. This thread, like all others on such subjects, isn't about Kasparov vs. Fischer, it's about Frankensparov vs. Fischerstein. As such, it cannot be resolved by reasoning - it's speculation all the way down.
Don't overlook the fact that Kasparov had Fischer's games to learn from, but not v.v. Fischer would have been up against an unknown opponent; Kasparov not.
Richard