07 Jul 08
Originally posted by streetfighterMy friend Will Burt (who plays at around 170 +- 70 ECF) would play 6.h4 without a second's thought. When he sees an early g6 he generally plays h4 immediately. He decided some years ago that he enjoyed his blitz chess games more than his long play games, so now he plays the same moves in both (but plays the moves more slowly in the long play games so as to make them look as if they have some thought behind them).
Yes, sorry, me being a bit dim. There's a very interesting practical move here for white instead of Be3.
By the way, I am printing off all of your games that you are posting on this forum. Eventually I will staple them together and I'll have a free copy of your book.
07 Jul 08
Originally posted by Fat Lady😛 No, you'll have a printout of a 'database' version of my games! My book is a little bit more interesting than that I hope!
My friend Will Burt (who plays at around 170 +- 70 ECF) would play 6.h4 without a second's thought. When he sees an early g6 he generally plays h4 immediately. He decided some years ago that he enjoyed his blitz chess games more than his long play games, so now he plays the same moves in both (but plays the moves more slowly in the long play games so as to ...[text shortened]... on this forum. Eventually I will staple them together and I'll have a free copy of your book.
Of course, your friend Will is correct-6.h4 is the move I had in mind, but there is more to it than just a hack against g6. Back in the original post, Mark gives a clue as to what the other reason for 6.h4 is.
07 Jul 08
"By the way, I am printing off all of your games that you are posting on this forum. Eventually I will staple them together and I'll have a free copy of your book."
Brilliant...
I too thought 6.h4.
A pawn on g6/g3 is a magnet for my h-pawn with either colour.
The other idea.
Is it to play Rh3 and Goose the Rook to A1. Is that it?
07 Jul 08
h4 also supports a bishop on g5. Maybe there's a trick based on Bg5, Nd5 and Nf6+; though in my experience it's rare that your opponent will let you have three moves in a row. Two you can sometimes get away with, especially if your opponent's age exceeds their grade, but three is pushing it.
09 Jul 08
Originally posted by streetfighterWhat happens if instead of responding defensively to White's 11.h5, Black plays 11...b4 ? It seems to me that taking the h-pawn with the knight saves White a tempo in opening up the h-file for him; removes the f6-knight from its strategic position (where it can reach d5), thus costing Black *another* tempo to move it back; and also allows White the initiative by turning away from attack into passive defense.
Yeah, that's a much more aggressive approach, but look at this...
Acs,Peter (2450) - Biro,Peter (2210) [C41]
HUN-ch sf Budapest (2.1), 1998
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 Re8 9.f3 a6 10.h4 b5 11.h5 Nxh5 12.g4 Ng3 13.Rh3 Nxf1 14.Rxf1 c5 15.Nb3 b4 16.Nd5 Nd7 17.Bh6 Bh8 18.Rfh1 Nf6 19.Bg5 h5 20.R3h2 Re5 2 ...[text shortened]... 2.Rg2 Kf8 23.Bxf6 1-0
If black's not hanging around (10...b5) then neither is white 11.h5!)
09 Jul 08
Originally posted by Mark AdkinsYou're right Mark, it does lose a tempo the way it's played, but 11...b4 doesn't really help Black much. Why is this?
What happens if instead of responding defensively to White's 11.h5, Black plays 11...b4 ? It seems to me that taking the h-pawn with the knight saves White a tempo in opening up the h-file for him; removes the f6-knight from its strategic position (where it can reach d5), thus costing Black *another* tempo to move it back; and also allows White the initiative by turning away from attack into passive defense.
Well, White's basic strategy is to open the h-file, play Bh6 to exchange black's main defender/attacker off and then remove the Nf6. If all this goes smoothly, white will hope to land mate before black can do anything serious in response.
11...b4 just forces white to play 12.Nd5, which can be considered a part of the strategy given above (to exchange the defensive Knight on f6). The only positive for black would be if something like 12...c5 were to cause trouble, but white is already so well-developed compared to black that he could even consider ignoring the attacked knight on d4! (13.hxg6 &Bh6) And also there is nothing wrong with simply retreating with 13.Nb3, when e.g....a5,...a4 is very slow.
In essence, white is attacking with pieces against the black king, whereas black would be attacking with pawns against white pieces. White has a headstart, and material can be offered/shed if the black king falls first! From a practical viewpoint (let alone a theoretical one) this is too dangerous for black.
All of this is, of course, just my opinion-would be interested to hear from others.
10 Jul 08
Originally posted by streetfighterI'm not sure I follow this. Up to the point of divergence, the actual game moves are:
You're right Mark, it does lose a tempo the way it's played, but 11...b4 doesn't really help Black much. Why is this?
Well, White's basic strategy is to open the h-file, play Bh6 to exchange black's main defender/attacker off and then remove the Nf6. If all this goes smoothly, white will hope to land mate before black can do anything serious in res ...[text shortened]... ack.
All of this is, of course, just my opinion-would be interested to hear from others.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 Re8 9.f3 a6 10.h4 b5 11.h5
And now I played 11...b4 and you responded 12.Nd5. I now propose 12...a5. If 13.Nxf6 then 13...Qxf6 with 14...c5 planned. If instead 13.Bg5 then 13...c6 prods the knight, and if a series of exchanges ensues on f6, White's attack has been blunted while Black has been able to bring his queen to f6 to help defend. And after 12...a5, 13.N4b5 is answered by 13...Na6.
I also am not sure how you can force an exchange of bishops since the Black bishop can simply move to h8 (the Black rook is on e8, not f8).
And if an exchange of pawns occurs on g6 (though it needn't) then I might, depending on the circumstances, prefer to recapture with the f-pawn so that the h-pawn can be defended from the 7th rank, though that could be very dangerous if your bishop could get to c4 and if I could not block with my own bishop at e5 (or otherwise parry the threat).
Probably I am missing some things since I am mentally rather tired and "stiff" right now, but I throw this out to roil the waters...
10 Jul 08
Originally posted by Mark AdkinsI think 12...a5 is simply too slow to give black the counterplay he needs! White would play 13.Bh6, and although 13...Bh8 preserves the bishop, it's doing very little in an active sense. Now white can play 14.g4 because there are no immediate concerns (as opposed to the Sicilian Dragon version of this kind of position).
I'm not sure I follow this. Up to the point of divergence, the actual game moves are:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 Re8 9.f3 a6 10.h4 b5 11.h5
And now I played 11...b4 and you responded 12.Nd5. I now propose 12...a5. If 13.Nxf6 then 13...Qxf6 with 14...c5 planned. If instead 13.Bg5 then 13...c6 prod ...[text shortened]... am mentally rather tired and "stiff" right now, but I throw this out to roil the waters...
14. g4 allows for the d4 knight to offer itself on f5 (and this is where the inclusion of bh6/bh8 makes itself felt-the black king will be in serious danger). For example 14...c6 15.Nf4 c5?! 16.Nf5!
I simply don't see how black can defend this, and since he has no real counterplay, then this is not a position he should be wanting to play.
I will try to find a recent game played in the Scottish Nat. league where black won a cracker and shows how to generate real play as black in this line. (because I don't mean to scare you away from playing a particular opening, so I'll try to redress the balance - almost all openings are playable to some extent and to certain levels).
11 Jul 08
3 edits
Originally posted by streetfighter1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 Re8 9.f3 a6 10.h4 b5 11.h5 b4 12.Nd5 a5 13.Bh6 Bh8 14.g4
I think 12...a5 is simply too slow to give black the counterplay he needs! White would play 13.Bh6, and although 13...Bh8 preserves the bishop, it's doing very little in an active sense. Now white can play 14.g4 because there are no immediate concerns (as opposed to the Sicilian Dragon version of this kind of position).
14. g4 allows for the d4 kni edress the balance - almost all openings are playable to some extent and to certain levels).
and now 14...Nxd5 15.exd5 Qf6 and it seems to me that Black has all the counterplay, at least of an attack-blunting variety, that he could ask for. The knight on d4 cannot move due to threat of 16...Qxb2#.
The threat of 17...c5 18.dxc6(ep) Nxc6 is in the air, and Black's queen is simultaneously attacking an undefended pawn on f3, while the c4-g8 diagonal is now blocked by White's own pawn.
11 Jul 08
Originally posted by Mark AdkinsYeah, this looks a bit better than the other lines, although after 16.c3 bxc3 17.bxc3 I still don't really know what black is doing here!? It looks ugly for white, but black isn't in a position to take advantage of that in the short term.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 Re8 9.f3 a6 10.h4 b5 11.h5 b4 12.Nd5 a5 13.Bh6 Bh8 14.g4
and now 14...Nxd5 15.exd5 Qf6 and it seems to me that Black has all the counterplay, at least of an attack-blunting variety, that he could ask for. The knight on d4 cannot move due to threat of 16...Qxb2#.
The threa ...[text shortened]... tacking an undefended pawn on f3, while the c4-g8 diagonal is now blocked by White's own pawn.
Anyway, instead of 14.g4, how does black respond to 14.Bg5? This pin is very awkward, and probably forces black to recapture on g6 with the f-pawn. Don't know if Black can get away with ...c6 then...c5?! but I'd be surprised if he could. OK Mark, 14.Bg5! Your move 😉
12 Jul 08
Originally posted by streetfighterAfter 14.g4 Nxd5 15.exd5 Qf6 16.c3 I would defer ...bxc3 for the moment to play 16...c5. Then 17.dxc6(ep) bxc3 18.Qxc3 Ba6 and if 19.Bxa6 Black has the option to recapture with 19...Rxa6, when ...Rec8 might be attractive.
Yeah, this looks a bit better than the other lines, although after 16.c3 bxc3 17.bxc3 I still don't really know what black is doing here!? It looks ugly for white, but black isn't in a position to take advantage of that in the short term.
Anyway, instead of 14.g4, how does black respond to 14.Bg5? This pin is very awkward, and probably forces black ...[text shortened]... away with ...c6 then...c5?! but I'd be surprised if he could. OK Mark, 14.Bg5! Your move 😉
After 14.Bg5 my first instinct is still 14...c6 and I don't see why that should be a problem for Black. 15.Nf4? Nxe4! forking queen and bishop and White has lost a pawn: (a) 16.fxe4 Qxg5 and the e pawn is also under attack. (b) 16.Bxd8 Nxd2 etc.
12 Jul 08
Originally posted by Mark AdkinsAfter 14.Bg5 c6 15.hxg6!
After 14.g4 Nxd5 15.exd5 Qf6 16.c3 I would defer ...bxc3 for the moment to play 16...c5. Then 17.dxc6(ep) bxc3 18.Qxc3 Ba6 and if 19.Bxa6 Black has the option to recapture with 19...Rxa6, when ...Rec8 might be attractive.
After 14.Bg5 my first instinct is still 14...c6 and I don't see why that should be a problem for Black. 15.Nf4? Nxe4! forking qu ...[text shortened]... e has lost a pawn: (a) 16.fxe4 Qxg5 and the e pawn is also under attack. (b) 16.Bxd8 Nxd2 etc.
Some of us were having a look at this position today at the Scottish Championships in Glasgow. Almost every line led to horrible, nasty mates against the black king. 15...hxg6 is impossible (16.Rxh8+ wins) 15...fxg6 looks unplayable (owing to 16.Bc4) and grabbing the knight with 15...cxd5 allows 16.gxh7+ (maybe 16.gxf7+ is also good enough?!) followed simply by 17.exd5 and the black king will be hunted down. I just don't think this line (...a6,...b5) is playable for Black 🙁
13 Jul 08
Originally posted by greenpawn34OK, perhaps 9...a6, 10...b5 and 11...b4 is too slow; and as streetfighter says, it leaves Black underdeveloped and attacking with pawns instead of pieces.
Sorry Mark.
I tried to hold the position against some big guns in the analysis
room this afternoon and I can wriggle like a cold oily snake.
Afraid SF & company fairly convinced me it's unplayable.
It's too slow. Good try though and very instructive.
So after
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 Re8 9.f3
what about 9...Nc6. That develops a piece and if 10.Nxc6 then 10...bxc6 opens the b-file for Black's heavy pieces, which can then mount a queenside attack to complement the bishop and/or queen attack along the long diagonal.
Otherwise, perhaps 9...Nc6 10.g4 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 Be6.
Opinions? Better options for White?