Nf3 to avoid the ruy

Originally posted by smrex13
If you're willing to face the Sicilian, you have to be willing to the play against the Lopez, too.

Scott

Unless I'm not understanding what you're really saying, then what you said is clearly false.

As White, I can play 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4. I am not playing a Ruy Lopez.

As White, I can play 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3, willingly facing the Sicilian.

What do I not understand here?

Originally posted by Mad Rook
Sorry, I don't get the joke. Nothing wrong with 1.d4, and 1...d5 isn't exactly a bolt of lightning.

I can obviously see you don't get the joke by reading your post. Does d4 really get you raring and excited about the upcoming game? Does d5?
Exactly. Well, if it does, fair enough. But I disagree with you.
To be honest, you probably need to read more into posts before taking them at face value.

Originally posted by gaychessplayer
Unless I'm not understanding what you're really saying, then what you said is clearly false.

As White, I can play 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4. I am not playing a Ruy Lopez.

As White, I can play 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3, willingly facing the Sicilian.

What do I not understand here?

Not to mention the possibility of a Scotch. You can count me out of this thread. No-one is making sense. (Except your last post, but everyone will ignore that and reason as before.)

Originally posted by gaychessplayer
Unless I'm not understanding what you're really saying, then what you said is clearly false.

As White, I can play 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4. I am not playing a Ruy Lopez.

As White, I can play 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3, willingly facing the Sicilian.

What do I not understand here?

I'm not saying that you can't avoid the Lopez - of course you can. However, if you are willing to take on the Sicilian (generally considered Black's best), then it makes no sense to avoid the Lopez (likely White's best).

Scott

Originally posted by curseknight
I can obviously see you don't get the joke by reading your post. Does d4 really get you raring and excited about the upcoming game? Does d5?
Exactly. Well, if it does, fair enough. But I disagree with you.
To be honest, you probably need to read more into posts before taking them at face value.

Because you used a "winky smiley", I knew some joke was intended. So I was trying REAL hard to not take your post at face value. But I simply couldn't see what you were driving at. (Hence the reason for my post.)

So, based on your latest post, I guess you were trying to imply that 1.d4 is a boring opening. That possibility did cross my mind, as many people make that claim. (And I don't really disagree with that statement either, although at my low level, I'm perfectly capable of transforming any opening into a wild blunderfest.) I just don't see how the post "1. d4?? d5!! 0-1" is supposed to imply dullness. Am I still missing something in your somewhat cryptic statement?

Originally posted by Mad Rook
Because you used a "winky smiley", I knew some joke was intended. So I was trying REAL hard to not take your post at face value. But I simply couldn't see what you were driving at. (Hence the reason for my post.)

So, based on your latest post, I guess you were trying to imply that 1.d4 is a boring opening. That possibility did cross my mind, as many peop ...[text shortened]... osed to imply dullness. Am I still missing something in your somewhat cryptic statement?

Yes. But never mind.

Originally posted by smrex13
I'm not saying that you can't avoid the Lopez - of course you can. However, if you are willing to take on the Sicilian (generally considered Black's best), then it makes no sense to avoid the Lopez (likely White's best).

Scott

The simplest and most logical way to illustrate this is to define what a Ruy Lopez is. Behold!

Ruy Lopez: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5

Anything other than that is NOT a Ruy Lopez. End of story.

Having establish that, White clearly has numerous and sundry ways of avoiding this opening, regardless of whether or not Black feels differently. All White must do is avoid ANY ONE of the three moves that he must necessarily make in order for a Ruy Lopez to be possible.

Originally posted by ChessBully911
The simplest and most logical way to illustrate this is to define what a Ruy Lopez is. Behold!

Ruy Lopez: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5

Anything other than that is NOT a Ruy Lopez. End of story.

Having establish that, White clearly has numerous and sundry ways of avoiding this opening, regardless of whether or not Black feels differently. All White ...[text shortened]... NY ONE of the three moves that he must necessarily make in order for a Ruy Lopez to be possible.

I don't think you read my post carefully. I said that White can avoid the Lopez. My point is that he shouldn't! It's a very strong opening for White. Why bother playing a weaker opening if you can play the Lopez?

Originally posted by smrex13
I don't think you read my post carefully. I said that White can avoid the Lopez. My point is that he shouldn't! It's a very strong opening for White. Why bother playing a weaker opening if you can play the Lopez?

a) I know I'm back. I regret this.
b) The Sicilian is Black's best choice? Who says? In that case GMs would always play it!

Originally posted by smrex13
Why bother playing a weaker opening if you can play the Lopez?

There are at least two good reasons for someone deciding to not play the Ruy Lopez after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6:

1. Spending hours and hours studying the latest theory up to around move 25 isn't an enjoyable experience for some players.

2. Openings like the Italian Game (1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4) or the Scotch Game (1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4) lead to a type of game that some players would prefer over the Ruy Lopez.

Having said that, I suapect that the Ruy Lopez is "objectively" (whatever that means) White's strongest choice after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it is the best choice for all players given the considerations (among others) that I listed above.

Originally posted by curseknight
a) I know I'm back. I regret this.
b) The Sicilian is Black's best choice? Who says? In that case GMs would always play it!

Oh come on, you don't regret it. This is fun stuff. 🙂

smrex13 stated that the Sicilian is generally considered Black's best defense. I'm inferring that he meant against 1.e4, but I'm not sure of that. (I don't know if he was considering Black's performances of various defenses against non 1.e4 openings.) While I certainly can't prove that claim, I don't think I'd try to challenge the claim, either.

If you go to the online Shredder opening database and plug in 1.e4, you'll get a list of responses by Black and the corresponding win percentages. And 1...c5 has the best performance for Black. So who knows, smrex13 might be right. Of course, the Shredder opening database is only circumstantial - it's not proof.

One interesting note about the Shredder database. If you go to the starting position, you'll see that 1.c4, 1.d4, 1.g3, and 1.Nf3 all have better performances than 1.e4. 😲

Edit - Link added below.

http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/opening-database.html

Originally posted by gaychessplayer
There are at least two good reasons for someone deciding to not play the Ruy Lopez after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6:

1. Spending hours and hours studying the latest theory up to around move 25 isn't an enjoyable experience for some players.

2. Openings like the Italian Game (1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4) or the Scotch Game (1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4) lead ...[text shortened]... est[/i] choice for all players given the considerations (among others) that I listed above.

Objectively means it achieves the objectives best- develops pieces, controls the center, allows castling, etc.
I think that there are plentiful openings which all achieve this. The Queen's Gambit Declined, for instance, the Giuoco Piano and the Scotch Game, even the Vienna Game or the King's Gambit Accepted, the English Opening and the Center Counter, the French Defence, Advanced Variation and the Albin Countergambit.
You've gotta strike off a lot of openings and do a lot of analysis.

b) The Sicilian is Black's best choice? Who says? In that case GMs would always play it![/b]

Many GMs do play only the Sicilian. In any event, my original comments were perhaps not clear enough and caused some miscommunication. In the original post of this thread the player was happy to meet the Sicilian and wanted to avoid the Lopez.

My point was that the Sicilian is Black's most frequently played, highest scoring defense vs. 1.e4. (I'll leave it for another debate as to whether it can be called "best"😉. It is also extremely theoretical and sharp. The Lopez, on the other hand, is a fairly positional opening (depending on the line, of course) in which one slip is unlikely to cost you the game. Other than issues of study time (which is no small point), I can't see any objective reason that an e4 player would want to play something other than the Lopez when given the opportunity.

Hope that clarifies things,
Scott

Originally posted by Mad Rook
Oh come on, you don't regret it. This is fun stuff. 🙂

smrex13 stated that the Sicilian is generally considered Black's best defense. I'm inferring that he meant against 1.e4, but I'm not sure of that. (I don't know if he was considering Black's performances of various defenses against non 1.e4 openings.) While I certainly can't prove that claim, I don't ...[text shortened]...

http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/opening-database.html

Oh well... I suppose I could hang out here longer. 🙂

Originally posted by smrex13
Many GMs do play only the Sicilian. In any event, my original comments were perhaps not clear enough and caused some miscommunication. In the original post of this thread the player was happy to meet the Sicilian and wanted to avoid the Lopez.

My point was that the Sicilian is Black's most frequently played, highest scoring defense vs. 1.e4. (I'll leave ...[text shortened]... ng other than the Lopez when given the opportunity.

Hope that clarifies things,
Scott

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The Sicilian is most common possibly... an entirely different debate whether it is best.
And maybe people play something other than the Lopez for:
1. Variation
2. Equal Strength anyway
3. Fun! 🙂