03 Jan 09
Originally posted by acb123I think this is the root of the matter. Some people come here expecting to play according to OTB rules. They may even be ignorant the fact that different forms of chess exist and that this site offers something closer to correspondence chess than OTB chess. Personally, I play correspondence exclusively and therefore use books and databases.
This is obviously a question of personal choice. If anyone plays against me, they can be certain they are playing only me..my tricks and blunders. good moves and bad..no books, no databases, no outside help of any kind. I would take little pleasure in winning a game knowing I had found the answer to the problems my opponent had set me from an outside source. I like to play all my games to OTB rules..but other people make other choices.
It has to be said that one of the main reasons that databases and books are allowed is quite simply that there is no way to enforce a ban of such resources. How could you know what I am reading right now?
03 Jan 09
1 edit
Originally posted by KeplerThis is from Chessmaster 11
They may have a database but they don't come with one built in as far as I know. Generally one can use the interface to the engine to build a database. Or is it possible you mean the engine's opening book? Similar thing but not really the same.
Extensive course on the basics of chess taught by International Chess Master Josh Waitzkin.
Tutorials from Josh Waitzkins groundbreaking book The Art of Learning.
Attacking Chess course commentary by Grandmaster Larry Christiansen.
Famous Games: 900 of chesss most important games presented and analyzed.
600,000+ game database.
Coverage of all classic and modern opening variations
I am sorry, I forgot,you know everything. Fritz is put out by Chessbase and has access to it's database.
03 Jan 09
Originally posted by CartersonI know everything? That's something I didn't know. Oh dear, that's a logical fallacy. What is your point?
This is from Chessmaster 11
Extensive course on the basics of chess taught by International Chess Master Josh Waitzkin.
Tutorials from Josh Waitzkins groundbreaking book The Art of Learning.
Attacking Chess course commentary by Grandmaster Larry Christiansen.
Famous Games: 900 of chesss most important games presented and analyzed.
600,000+ game data ...[text shortened]... y, I forgot,you know everything. Fritz is put out by Chessbase and has access to it's database.
Just in case you are in any doubt database does not equal engine. There are plenty of people around who can tell you what the difference is. Not me of course, I either know everything or nothing according to which way the wind blows.
03 Jan 09
Originally posted by CartersonCarterson, what's your point ? Any well equipped chess program comes with a database. (Chessmaster and Fritz are two well known examples). But if you are genuine player then you use Chessmaster or Fritz only as database viewer, with engine switched off.
This is from Chessmaster 11
Extensive course on the basics of chess taught by International Chess Master Josh Waitzkin.
Tutorials from Josh Waitzkins groundbreaking book The Art of Learning.
Attacking Chess course commentary by Grandmaster Larry Christiansen.
Famous Games: 900 of chesss most important games presented and analyzed.
600,000+ game data ...[text shortened]... y, I forgot,you know everything. Fritz is put out by Chessbase and has access to it's database.
03 Jan 09
Originally posted by KeplerThat came out harsh and i apologize. Just frustrated with the fact of them skewing numbers on that guy.
I know everything? That's something I didn't know. Oh dear, that's a logical fallacy. What is your point?
Just in case you are in any doubt database does not equal engine. There are plenty of people around who can tell you what the difference is. Not me of course, I either know everything or nothing according to which way the wind blows.
I am done trying to prove his case, and will go back to playing over there.
It's just when i heard the story and then started asking around, boy did I see what is going on over here.
I have no hard feelings to you at all. I just got an email stating that you are one of the smartest people on here.
03 Jan 09
Originally posted by JakalThe thing you refuse to understand is everyone agrees to the rules so that discussion does not have to take place. It is ASSUMED you can and maybe will use DB's but not engines. I fail to see why you cannot separate the two concepts. Sometimes I use opening books, not finding a whole lot of value in them though unless I want to prepare for an over the board tournament.
If both players agree to use external resources then there is no problem.
If your opponent does not know that you are using books and databases, doesn't that constitute cheating? I've played 130 games on this site and have never used outside sources. Are you saying that I've lost some games because my opponents got help from professional resources? It has t ...[text shortened]... and implement what I've learned in actual games. This is how I feel I will improve my game.
I think here it is good to use DB's and openings because this site is supposed to be TEACHING chess, that's why we have clubs devoted to studying the game here, but the site in general is a learning tool. If you notice, you get no money for playing here, in fact have to pay to play here.
So there is nothing to be gained except for the idiots who use engines to boost their flagging ego till they get caught out and then they are gone. Engine use can be and is detectable, the 3b part of the rules.
So lighten up with the histrionics.
04 Jan 09
Originally posted by sonhouseWhy are you so angry?
The thing you refuse to understand is everyone agrees to the rules so that discussion does not have to take place. It is ASSUMED you can and maybe will use DB's but not engines. I fail to see why you cannot separate the two concepts. Sometimes I use opening books, not finding a whole lot of value in them though unless I want to prepare for an over the board ...[text shortened]... use can be and is detectable, the 3b part of the rules.
So lighten up with the histrionics.
04 Jan 09
Originally posted by JakalYou could beat a 2000+ rated player by using a database? I can gaurantee you that 90% of players that have gotten to 2000 use a database at least some or most of the time.
In my opinion, this is 100% cheating on this site unless both players agree before the game begins that they will both be using external sources. If no such discussion occurs, neither player should be getting help. What is the point of playing against Fritz or Chessmaster? It is completely ridiculous if one player uses external sources and the other does not. By using hints from Chessmaster, I could beat a player with a rating of 2000+!
04 Jan 09
Originally posted by onebyoneProvided the engine is not running at the time the Chessmaster opening book thing would likely be OK. For safety I would suggest not referring to it during a game. The opening tree on ChessOK.com appears to be nothing more than a database and should be OK. chess.com, chessgames.com and other sites have similar facilities available. There is even a game explorer somewhere on this site that can be used as a database.
So would Chessmaster's Opening Book Reference be classed as an engine or a DB?
Similar question regarding the opening tree mode on ChessOK.com...
Forgive my ignorance.
04 Jan 09
Originally posted by Keplerif the engine is not running, the engine is not running. seems fairly straightforward to me.
Provided the engine is not running at the time the Chessmaster opening book thing would likely be OK. For safety I would suggest not referring to it during a game. The opening tree on ChessOK.com appears to be nothing more than a database and should be OK. chess.com, chessgames.com and other sites have similar facilities available. There is even a game explorer somewhere on this site that can be used as a database.
but I wouldn't use an engine's opening book anyway, as they're compiled by a human, quite small, unupdated with new theory, and worst of all designed to steer the game towards positions well suited for an engine instead of human.
04 Jan 09
Originally posted by wormwoodYes, it is fairly straightforward but we have had one or two alleged cheats who argued that they did not know the engine was turned on! If something with an engine in it is not used at all then there is no room for that kind of "error". The trouble with engine interfaces is that they often fire up the engine as a default, you have to remember to turn it off. With many proper database programs any engine is off by default.
if the engine is not running, the engine is not running. seems fairly straightforward to me.
but I wouldn't use an engine's opening book anyway, as they're compiled by a human, quite small, unupdated with new theory, and worst of all designed to steer the game towards positions well suited for an engine instead of human.
04 Jan 09
Originally posted by Keplerit's pretty far fetched to claim to not notice the engine going through the lines, and then picking up the result as your move, and doing that for every move over dozens of games. just about as plausible as a serial rapist claiming to have accidentally stumbled over multiple women with his pants accidentally falling down, over and over again. 🙂
Yes, it is fairly straightforward but we have had one or two alleged cheats who argued that they did not know the engine was turned on! If something with an engine in it is not used at all then there is no room for that kind of "error". The trouble with engine interfaces is that they often fire up the engine as a default, you have to remember to turn it off. With many proper database programs any engine is off by default.