Originally posted by ark13Yes but if you play 2. nc3 trying to transpose into the pirc with 3. e4 black can answer with with 2.d5 and have a good possition because white cant play c4 anymore.
But without c4 black can easily destroy white's center.
And I don't see why c4 is a wasted tempo. If white wanted to play d5, he would've done it on the first move. Clearly he doesn't, so white has no need to secure the square.
In the austrian attack white should always play e5 before black can, hemming in blacks dark square bishop and grabing space.
Here's an article that could be usefull to you ark.
http://alumni.plymouth.edu/~zrstephen02/DIEPIRCDIE.html
The lines with ..c5 are fine with Black. Of course if Black plays badly White will have something, that is the same with every opening! I said in my post if Black knows the theory White will have nothing, and it's true. After 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. f4 Bg7 5. Nf3 c5 6. Bb5+ , try to find a line where White's much better. We can go back and forth correcting each other till I prove my point. I really don't care what Fischer or anyone else played, especially since he probably played it when less theory was known about this particular line. This variation has been analyzed to death, and I really think most people that played this as White gave up, because you know when someone plays ..c5 against you that they know all the theory.
Originally posted by !~TONY~!I agree, ..c5 against the austrian is best. In correspondence, there are plenty of sucessful db examples to follow.
The lines with ..c5 are fine with Black. Of course if Black plays badly White will have something, that is the same with every opening! I said in my post if Black knows the theory White will have nothing, and it's true. After 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. f4 Bg7 5. Nf3 c5 6. Bb5+ , try to find a line where White's much better. We can go back and forth c ...[text shortened]... ite gave up, because you know when someone plays ..c5 against you that they know all the theory.
Originally posted by !~TONY~!Thank you for the information that White has "given up" playing 6 Bb5+ in response to 5 .... c5; could you please PM this important revelation to the 41 GM's and other top players who played this line in 2005 in the chesslab database (23W, 6L, 12D)?
The lines with ..c5 are fine with Black. Of course if Black plays badly White will have something, that is the same with every opening! I said in my post if Black knows the theory White will have nothing, and it's true. After 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. f4 Bg7 5. Nf3 c5 6. Bb5+ , try to find a line where White's much better. We can go back and forth c ...[text shortened]... ite gave up, because you know when someone plays ..c5 against you that they know all the theory.
EDIT: Even the rather tame 6 dxc5 scored more than 50% White wins in 2005 (9W, 3L, 5D). It seems in the games between players who "know the theory" far better than you or I, White's "nothing" translates to a lot of wins.
Originally posted by !~TONY~!Irrational stubborness is a bad character trait in a chess player. You stated White had "nothing" in the line; the games of GM's and other strong players shows differently. You claimed that people had stopped playing the line presumably because it was so ineffectual; the stats show that 6 Bb5+ was the most played response in 2005 against 5 .... c5. and that it has good success (over 50% White wins and few losses). Your positional judgment on any line is unimportant to me; you don't seem to understand the concept of center control, pressure and attacking chances leading to eventual victories. I suggest that players like yourself refrain from publicizing your odd opinions as gospel truth in the analysis of lines that GM's find quite useful even if you think that they are "nothing".
Once again, your statistics mean absolutely nothing. Who knows if Black played best, or if the wins were out of the opening? No amount of statistics about won games means anything. You show me a variation when White is much better, and I will show you that it's not. 🙂
Cmon man. You don't have faith in your defence? And I think we both know that whether or not White scores a bit over 50% makes no difference. Look up 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 Bb5! In fact, look up most anything and White will score over 50%. Once again, I said with correct play White has nothing. I don't think you can debate that. I simply asked you to show me a line where White was winning. As for center control, where is White's center after the lines with Bb5+, e5 and e6. It disintegrates. It's nonexistant. I will giving you attacking chances but with correct play through the complications they amount to nothing, although that's true of everything I guess. I have an insanely good record against the Austrian Attack in tournament play. I know pretty much all the theory. Also, what's with the rudeness? Where did I insult you? Am I making you so mad that you have to reduce yourself to personal insults? Sad....🙁
Originally posted by !~TONY~!You are incorrect. What you did in this thread is tell a player that the preferred main line by GM's against a defense is "nothing". That's hogwash and YOU should know that. I said the line where Black plays 5 .... c5 is very tricky and Black must memorize a lot of moves to avoid disaster - I think that is accurate. I found a site where the authors of the Ultimate Pirc (Nunn and somebody else) describe the line we are discussing 5 ... c5 6 Bb5+ Bd7 (remember Nd7 is an immediate loss) 7 e5 Ng4 "ultra sharp and Black has to struggle to draw". Of course, it is possible to look at any line and have someone say White doesn't have a "winning" advantage; I never claimed that White necessarily did. Few games are won directly because of the opening between reasonably well-prepared and decent players, but such a high WINNING percentage (not performance percentage which is usually over 50% but actual winning percentage is not) suggests that the line is somewhat difficult to play.
Cmon man. You don't have faith in your defence? And I think we both know that whether or not White scores a bit over 50% makes no difference. Look up 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 Bb5! In fact, look up most anything and White will score over 50%. Once again, I said with correct play White has nothing. I don't think you can debate that. I simply asked you to show me ...[text shortened]... sult you? Am I making you so mad that you have to reduce yourself to personal insults? Sad....🙁
I regard your cavalier dismissal of my comments and arrogant manner as extremely rude; if you want to argue that the merits of the line from Black's side that's fine but to simply say such a line as the Austrian Attack is "nothing" to players not as strong as you is misleading them. The idea of the Forum was to give useful info to other players, not merely to spout our personal predilections as gospel truth.
EDIT: The site is http://perso.wanadoo.fr/mdv/echecs/opening/pircp2.html#P58
It's exact words describing the line I gave is "ultra sharp, with wild complications" and the position I gave after move 7 as the "crucial variant, has great difficulties to draw".
I am not being rude at all, I really believe that White has nothing, and in fact, in the e6 lines, so does Nunn and McNab. I have the Ultimate Pirc sitting right here. Here is a direct quote:
"The older 8..Bxb5 is still regularly played, but White seems to obtain some advantage in the main lines. The second possibility is 8..fxe6, introduced by Seirawan in 1988. It has stood up well to ten years of intense scrutiny, and there is still no clear route for White to an advantage."
Booyah. I trust Nunn, you know, since he's a GM. White has nothing.
Originally posted by !~TONY~!Who said White has to play 8 e6? Better read some more, expert. I do note that if White is so inclined he can force a draw with 8 e6 fxe6 9 Ng5 Bxb5 10 Nxe6 Bxd4! 11 Nxd8 Bf2+ 12 Kd2 Be3+ etc. etc. Two points: one, Black has to find the move Bxd4! which means giving up his Queen; are most players going to do that or look to move their Queen? Second, your line is not acceptable if Black wants to play for a win.
I am not being rude at all, I really believe that White has nothing, and in fact, in the e6 lines, so does Nunn and McNab. I have the Ultimate Pirc sitting right here. Here is a direct quote:
"The older 8..Bxb5 is still regularly played, but White seems to obtain some advantage in the main lines. The second possibility is 8..fxe6, introduced by Seirawa ...[text shortened]... White to an advantage."
Booyah. I trust Nunn, you know, since he's a GM. White has nothing.
I missed the part where GM Nunn said White has "nothing"; could you please find that? I assume you know the difference between a "clear route to an advantage" and "nothing". Besides, your statement was the entire Austrian Attack gives White "nothing" not one line.
I know there are more lines. I think the only other serious is the Bxd7 lines, but I think Black is ok there also. And it's not just my opinion man, it's others. Read some books. Pirc Alert! is the best I think. Why are you getting so mad dude?
EDIT: Oh, and I took the line "White can't find a clear route to advantage as is. He can't find a way to advantage, as in, you can't find a way to your house, as in you can't get to it, as in White has no advantage. My bad.
Originally posted by !~TONY~!BTW, the Ultimate Pirc was written in 1998 and the comments on the website by the authors seem to be a reassement of the line given White's recent successes. I'm not going to read up too heavily on the Pirc; I'll just keep playing the Austrian Attack since I've shown that White can always secure at least a draw even against your pet line IF Black plays precisely. Did White have an advantage in the more than 50% of the games it won against your line in 2005?
I know there are more lines. I think the only other serious is the Bxd7 lines, but I think Black is ok there also. And it's not just my opinion man, it's others. Read some books. Pirc Alert! is the best I think. Why are you getting so mad dude?
EDIT: Oh, and I took the line "White can't find a clear route to advantage as is. He can't find a way to a ...[text shortened]... n't find a way to your house, as in you can't get to it, as in White has no advantage. My bad.
Originally posted by !~TONY~!I'm not interested in a thematic game, though I did prepare extensively to face the Pirc which was usually played by my second round opponent in the STC Championship on USCL (sadly, he never showed up for the game!). My primary purpose was merely to state that the Austrian is the preferred opening for attacking players against the Pirc and that Pirc players should be prepared to meet it. I still think 5 .... c5 requires very accurate defense from Black and is not to be recommended to someone just starting to play the opening. And I think the forced drawing line makes 5 .... c5 an inferior choice unless Black is content with a quick draw (and to make a lot of precise moves if White doesn't want the draw). Those are my opinions based on analysis and game results by strong players not on pithy statements that White has "nothing".
I dunno. All I know is I conk people who play the Austrian Attack against me. We can play a game if you wish. Keep in mind if you beat me it will have less to do with the opening and more to do with your skill vs. mine.
EDIT: Obviously I'm in general referring to OTB play; it's a lot easier finding the correct defensive moves when you have access to books and databases and don't have the clock ticking.