22 Mar 12
2 edits
Originally posted by nimzo5I agree, but I have also surprisingly read that having the white rook in front of the advancing pawn is ok (and maybe even preferable) until the pawn gets to the 5th rank or so. Yet, in this case below the white rook (my rook) was stuck in front of the pawn even after the pawn advanced to the 5th rank, and which seems a disaster as you say. I guess I was hoping that I might could get a check or at least a tempo eventually. In all, however, I agree that it seems much better to have the rook behind the advancing pawn in support of the pawn. Have always thought that as a basic principle.
That being said I don't like the position of the White rook. Rooks in front of your passed pawn is a disaster.
22 Mar 12
Originally posted by kingshillA friend of mine used to win £10 bets at my local chess club by mating with 2 knights against a pawn with 2 minutes on the clock. I also remember a old club mate of mine, Paul Motwani being very impressed when he lost this ending to another GM in a blitz finish, who only used 30 sec! to force mate!
I've actually lost to 2 knights in the past. I did my best to sack my last pawn but my opponent R Taylor of Newport was wise to it. After the game he told me he'd won a couple of similar games previously. Knowing your endgames can help you pick up many valuable points.
22 Mar 12
Originally posted by nimzo5I think in this position the best move would simply be 35. Ra7 instead of 35. g3.
[fen]5k2/5p2/R5p1/7p/2r5/7P/P4PP1/6K1[/fen]
I think this moment is key. If White is going to opt for this endgame then you need a clear plan to create a second weakness that keeps the Black king from coming over and gobbling up the pawn.
That being said I don't like the position of the White rook. Rooks in front of your passed pawn is a disaster.
The plan would be to maneuver on both wings using the white rook as lateral pressure (this is why the rook is good in front of a passed pawn on its home rank) on the kingside, push the pawns and king up on the kingside while slowly advancing the a pawn and when the moment is ripe get the rook behind the a pawn and advance it to the seventh (promote if possible) this way your rook always has optimum mobility and your opponents is always tied down to the passed pawn.
Basically, the black king and rook should be overworked so that you can snatch another pawn on the kingside and thus have two passed pawns.
23 Mar 12
Originally posted by nimzo5I just notice the positioned you post is a little off.
[fen]5k2/5p2/R5p1/7p/2r5/7P/P4PP1/6K1[/fen]
I think this moment is key. If White is going to opt for this endgame then you need a clear plan to create a second weakness that keeps the Black king from coming over and gobbling up the pawn.
That being said I don't like the position of the White rook. Rooks in front of your passed pawn is a disaster.
My king was actually at f1 instead of g1, which maybe makes a little difference. Maybe not. Though as white, I would rather my K be at its actual position f1 instead of g1. A quicker Ke2 if desired.
23 Mar 12
Originally posted by moon196933. Ra6 is a terrible move
A RHP Feb 2011 game below against a strong player I had previously lost a few games without a win, and was craving a win against him. In this game below, I gained a pawn and intended to grind to the win but instead I did a grind to the draw. I am white and played 1.e4. He replied 1...c5.
A general question is what could I have done to avoid the draw. ...[text shortened]... in my notes.} Rf3f4 61. Kh6h7 {Draw agreed.} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]
33. Rd4 or
33. Rd1!? with the idea of
33...... bc
34. Rc1 and white rounds up the black c pawn with Kd3 and Rc3
I think the ending after 33 Ra6 is probably drawn
23 Mar 12
2 edits
Originally posted by tomtom232Good idea but I think I was concerned black would go h4 if I Rd7 you suggest. Though probably not significant. White to move.
I think in this position the best move would simply be 35. Ra7 instead of 35. g3.
The plan would be to maneuver on both wings using the white rook as lateral pressure (this is why the rook is good in front of a passed pawn on its home rank) on the kingside, push the pawns and king up on the kingside while slowly advancing the a pawn and when the moment ...[text shortened]... e overworked so that you can snatch another pawn on the kingside and thus have two passed pawns.
I do like white Rd7 you suggest. Yet, the more I look at this starting position below, the more it seems drawn. White to move.
I think earlier, I should have Rd4 instead of Rxa6 in the position below (white to move) to satisfy the principle of not exchanging pawns when up a pawn or material, and just to keep more pawns on the queen side. I think less chance of a draw.
Lastly, I still wonder in this later position below in the game if I could have avoided the draw and won as white if I had moved white Kg7 here. White to move.
In all, I just have to be careful in gaining a pawn and grinding to a win instead grinding to a draw.
23 Mar 12
1 edit
Originally posted by moon196942..... f6?? loses
A RHP Feb 2011 game below against a strong player I had previously lost a few games without a win, and was craving a win against him. In this game below, I gained a pawn and intended to grind to the win but instead I did a grind to the draw. I am white and played 1.e4. He replied 1...c5.
A general question is what could I have done to avoid the draw. in my notes.} Rf3f4 61. Kh6h7 {Draw agreed.} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]
black's king must have access to g7.
I remembered learning this as I junior. I hunted out my old book that taught me this and the game
Unzicker - Lundin Amsterdam 1954
so back to the game...
white's win was on move 53.
instead of Rg8 white plays
53. Rb8 Ra7
54. Rb5 Ke6
55. Kg6 with another pawn to follow
23 Mar 12
Originally posted by queenabberGood observation. I agree that 33.Rxa6 (below) is drawish. Black to move.
33. Ra6 is a terrible move
33. Rd4 or
33. Rd1!? with the idea of
33...... bc
34. Rc1 and white rounds up the black c pawn with Kd3 and Rc3
I think the ending after 33 Ra6 is probably drawn
And that 33.Rd4 (below) would have been better. Black to move.
Or even 33.Rc1 (below) you suggest as an option, enticing Black to 33...bxc4. Black to move.
23 Mar 12
5 edits
Originally posted by queenabberThanks for the comments. Black 42...f6 does seem to box his K. How could have White taken advantage and force a loss on Black? What I did was move my K around to back of his g-pawn. White to move below. I did 43.Ke1 heading toward his rook or up the board.
42..... f6?? loses
black's king must have access to g7.
I remembered learning this as I junior. I hunted out my old book that taught me this and the game
Unzicker - Lundin Amsterdam 1954
so back to the game...
white's win was on move 53.
instead of Rg8 white plays
53. Rb8 Ra7
54. Rb5 Ke6
55. Kg6 with another pawn to follow
Your 53.Rb8 I like and is interesting, and appears to take advantage of the earlier Black 42 ...f6 move. Blacks 54... Rxa7 is essentially forced and then Blacks 55...Ke6 is forced after the 55.Rb5+ check, and your variation ends in this position below.
At first glance I thought that Black could do Ra3 to go after the White f or g-pawns and the position would ultimately be similar to what existed in the game. However, Black has to address White Rb6+ and then the white Rxf6 grabbing the black f6-pawn and protecting his f3-pawn in the process. If Black did 55...Ra3:
53. Rb8 Rxa7
54. Rb5+ Ke6
55. Kxg6 Ra3? (not good doesn't work)
56. Rb6+ Ke5 (for instance)
57. Rxf6 (position below) black to move
Instead, black has to 55 ... Ra6 I think, preventing the white Rb6+I think and just give up his h-pawn (along with the lost g-pawn), with a resulting position something like this below. Black to move. Not looking pretty for black. I think your 53.Rb8 was a key good suggestion for White.
23 Mar 12
1 edit
Originally posted by queenabberI think I would tweak your variation and not do 55.Kxg6 but instead 55.Rb6+ check him and take the g6 pawn with my rook? Either way I guess.
so back to the game...
white's win was on move 53.
instead of Rg8 white plays
53. Rb8 Ra7
54. Rb5 Ke6
55. Kg6 with another pawn to follow
53. Rb8 Ra7
54. Rb5 Ke6
55. Rb6+ Ke5 (for instance)
56.Rxg6 black to move
23 Mar 12
A game where I gained a pawn (against the Blackmar Gambit), and got the win instead of the draw.
Thread 145816
23 Mar 12
Originally posted by moon1969I think once you lose the a pawn the game is draw excepting blunders. We are far removed from the days of Capablanca- Duras where Capa just marched his pawns on one side of the board in a rook ending.
I think I would tweak your variation and not do 55.Kxg6 but instead 55.Rb6+ check him and take the g6 pawn with my rook? Either way I guess.
53. Rb8 Ra7
54. Rb5 Ke6
55. Rb6+ Ke5 (for instance)
56.Rxg6 black to move
[fen]8/r7/5RpK/4k2p/7P/5PP1/8/8 w - - 20 53[/fen]
23 Mar 12
Originally posted by moon1969I was mulling alternatives to Rxa6 and even after bxc if White has something better.
Good observation. I agree that 33.Rxa6 (below) is drawish. Black to move.
[fen]2r2k2/5p2/R5p1/1p5p/2P5/1P5P/P4PP1/5K2 w - b6 0 33[/fen]
And that 33.Rd4 (below) would have been better. Black to move.
[fen]2r2k2/5p2/p5p1/1p5p/2PR4/1P5P/P4PP1/5K2 w - b6 0 33[/fen]
Or even 33.Rc1 (below) you suggest as an option, enticing Black to 33...bxc4. Black to move.
[fen]2r2k2/5p2/p5p1/1p5p/2P5/1P5P/P4PP1/3R1K2 w - b6 0 33[/fen]
23 Mar 12
6 edits
Originally posted by nimzo5Also, something didn't seem right about my post. I have to Kxg6 as he suggest.
I think once you lose the a pawn the game is draw excepting blunders. We are far removed from the days of Capablanca- Duras where Capa just marched his pawns on one side of the board in a rook ending.
Anyway, you do not think that 53.Rb8 (which gives up the a-pawn) is a win for white. Black to move. Seems like black has to 53...Rxa7 and would want to anyway if not forced.
A couple more moves. 54.Rb5+ Ke6, 55.Kxg6. Black to move.
It seems White does get the black g-pawn and f or h-pawns, and potentially saves all three of his g,f,h pawns, ending up with a 3 to 1 pawn advantage, as opposed to the 2 to 1 pawn advantage in the actual game with 53.Rg8.
23 Mar 12
Originally posted by moon1969Rxf6 (not the impossible Rxg6) and lose the rook.
I think I would tweak your variation and not do 55.Kxg6 but instead 55.Rb6+ check him and take the g6 pawn with my rook? Either way I guess.
53. Rb8 Ra7
54. Rb5 Ke6
55. Rb6+ Ke5 (for instance)
56.Rxg6 black to move
[fen]8/r7/5RpK/4k2p/7P/5PP1/8/8 w - - 20 53[/fen]