Q for the Grob enthusiasts

Originally posted by z00t
The definition of what the grob is on wikipedia and here are different so give the lines you are saying are the grob.

1.g4 - that is the Grob.

Originally posted by Korch
1.g4 - that is the Grob.

Okay 1. g4? e5

How is black worse? White has just wasted his first move and got a weakness.

Originally posted by z00t
Okay [b]1. g4? e5

How is black worse? White has just wasted his first move and got a weakness.[/b]

Did I said that black is worse? Position is about equal. As I have mentioned in one of the previous threads there are also other playable openings like 1.Nf3, 1.b3, 1.g3 1.b4 in which white does not pretend to opening advantage but only wants get playable middle game positions which they like to play.

On 1.g4 e5 white can simply respond for example 2.d3

P.S. 2.Bg2 and 2.h3 are playable too.

Originally posted by z00t
Okay [b]1. g4? e5

How is black worse? White has just wasted his first move and got a weakness.[/b]

Okay this is getting annoying. To refute a white opening, black must be in a position that is considered equal or better than whites. 1. g4 actually does that without black even having to move; this is the general consensus among masters, engines, and the majority of the rest of the chess playing world. The move gives up control of the center, and, often, a pawn. This enough is refutation.

Originally posted by ih8sens
Okay this is getting annoying. To refute a white opening, black must be in a position that is considered equal or better than whites. 1. g4 actually does that without black even having to move; this is the general consensus among masters, engines, and the majority of the rest of the chess playing world. The move gives up control of the center, and, often, a pawn. This enough is refutation.

I disagree with statement

"To refute a white opening, black must be in a position that is considered equal or better than whites."

According to such "logic" all white openings which does not start with 1.e4 or 2.d4 are refuted.

In my opinion white opening is refuted if white can`t avoid lines which gives significant advantage for black.

Originally posted by Korch
I disagree with statement

"To refute a white opening, black must be in a position that is considered equal or better than whites."

According to such "logic" all white openings which does not start with 1.e4 or 2.d4 are refuted.

In my opinion white opening is refuted if white can`t avoid lines which gives significant advantage for black.

A pawn and the center seems to me to be a significant advantage.

Originally posted by ih8sens
A pawn and the center seems to me to be a significant advantage.

there are many hyper-modern styles of play that allow white controll of the center and black aims to later undermine the center and prove it weak... so this may be just a hyper-modern style of play for white.

Originally posted by ChessJester
there are many hyper-modern styles of play that allow white controll of the center and black aims to later undermine the center and prove it weak... so this may be just a hyper-modern style of play for white.

but they don't give away a pawn with little to no chance of restoration of both the material and the center.

ps: did I mention I don't like hypermodern chess 😀

Originally posted by ih8sens
A pawn and the center seems to me to be a significant advantage.

Such old-fashioned and dogmatic views have nothing common with modern chess.

Or can you prove your point with particular lines?

Originally posted by Korch
Such old-fashioned and dogmatic views have nothing common with modern chess.

Or can you prove your point with particular lines?

Yah sure..
Here's 1 line that I'm confident gives black a substantial advantage (and fritz agrees).

1. g4, d5 2. Bg2, Bxg4

Looks good to me 🙂.

Originally posted by ih8sens
Yah sure..
Here's 1 line that I'm confident gives black a substantial advantage (and fritz agrees).

1. g4, d5 2. Bg2, Bxg4

Looks good to me 🙂.

I you have read "Grob" threads in this forum more carefully then you should have read that after 1...d5 white can play 2.h3 with playable and equal position.

Originally posted by Korch
I you have read "Grob" threads in this forum more carefully then you should have read that after 1...d5 white can play 2.h3 with playable and equal position.

Well, it's not good but yah, that's far more playable than giving up the pawn. I have nothing against that opening because ultimately you can pick at the center anyways. It's not best but it's a heck of a lot better than the gambit variation.

Originally posted by ih8sens
Well, it's not good but yah, that's far more playable than giving up the pawn. I have nothing against that opening because ultimately you can pick at the center anyways. It's not best but it's a heck of a lot better than the gambit variation.

What is "the best" ? I think it really depends on what kind of positions do you like to play and what kind of positions dislike your opponent.

Originally posted by Korch
What is "the best" ? I think it really depends on what kind of positions do you like to play and what kind of positions dislike your opponent.

yah that's a good point. I'm really one of those e4 or your game is lost players. Your right though... there's no saying that the grob isn't the best move because chess hasn't been 'solved'. It just looks illogical to me.

Edit - I just put a grob's gambit set piece in the open invites.. time to give this a try.

Originally posted by ih8sens
yah that's a good point. I'm really one of those e4 or your game is lost players. Your right though... there's no saying that the grob isn't the best move because chess hasn't been 'solved'. It just looks illogical to me.

Edit - I just put a grob's gambit set piece in the open invites.. time to give this a try.

You have put position after 1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4. but as I said white is not obliged to give g4 pawn which gives black better play. As I have mentioned I think that 2.h3 is better.