Originally posted by JonathanB of LondonOk,let me see if I get what you're saying.On the board it doesn't show White actually losing a tempo.Delaying Bd3 is better,perhaps 7.Bd3 is a slightly(or more than slightly) inferior line and White should keep trying to force Black into dxc4 before he plays Bd3.And all that is the reason the books say White lost a tempo.
This is where you're hitting trouble I think.
White loses a tempo by playing Bd3 BECAUSE he has not played Qc2. Qc2 is, if you like, what might have been played but it isn't on the board after Bd3 and therefore the tempo has been lost.
Do I understand that correct?
Originally posted by RomanticusI think the answer is the one you don't like: white moved his bishop twice.
Consider the following line:
1.d4,d5 2.c4,e6 3.Nc3,Nf6 4.Bg5,Be7 5.Nf3,0-0 6.e3,Nbd7 7.Bd3,dxc4 8.Bxc4,c5
I've been told and have read this gains a tempo because White has to move the bishop again.I don't quite follow this.Look at the position after move 7,White has developed 4 pieces(2 bishops + 2 knights) while Black has 3 pieces out (2 knights + 1 bi ly get confused looks and silence 😞
Maybe someone here can enlighten me 🙂
it's a common thing. if you want to capture the knight on c6 with the bishop, you usually want to wait for h6.
if you want to capture on c4, you usually want white to move his bishop.
to see where the tempo went, you should compare your line with 6...dxc4 (without waiting for the bishop to move) 7.Bxc4 Nbd7 8.0-0 c5.
it's exactly the same position, exactly the same move number, but white has squeezed in castling.
Originally posted by JonathanB of LondonThe same line?7.Bd3 is the same as 7.Qc2?Some lines result in Black having an isolated d-pawn,some result in White having such an isolani.You say those are the same??
Here's the problem ...
they're not really different lines. They're the SAME line. (!)
I'm flabbergasted 😕
edit: I'm gonna shoot some billiards now,give my brain a rest 😉
This is the last post for me here. I think I am confusing more than helping. Look at this 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Nf3 Nc6. A similar tempo game occurs here. White does not play 6.Bd3 because of 6. ... dxc4 7.Bxc4 and he has lost a tempo (going to c4 in two moves). Therefore, white usually plays cxd5 or a3. In fac6 6.a3 is met by 6. ... a6 because black does not want to play Bd6 7.dxc5 Bxc5 8.b4 where he has lost one tempo going to c5 in two moves and another because the bishop must move again.
This is a very similar position with the same tempo saving themes.
I hope this helps.
Originally posted by RomanticusYes indeed.
The same line?7.Bd3 is the same as 7.Qc2?Some lines result in Black having an isolated d-pawn,some result in White having such an isolani.You say those are the same??
You're going back to the idea that chess is what happens on the board and ONLY what happens on the board. What appears on the board is different (obviously) after 7. Bd3 than what appears after 7. Qc2. Therefore, you say, it must be a different line.
That's an error of thinking though (I believe anyway). Give me a moment and I'll try to explain why in a longer post.
OK, here's my attempt to explain the fight for tempo and also why 7. Bd3 and 7. Qc2/7. Rc1 are all part of the same line. I'll write out an imaginary game with the imaginary thought process of White and Black.
What appears in bold below is the game that is played on the board. What's not in italics is the game that is played in the imagination.
1. d4 d5, 2. c4 e6, 3. Nc3 Nf6, 4. Bg5 Be7, 5. e3 0-0, 6. Nf3 Nbd7
WHITE:
OK what to do? I could play 7. Bd3 here. Black will probably play 7. ... dxc4 then 8. Bxc4 c5. That would be OK I suppose but it would be nice if I could get the bishop to c4 in one move. That would leave me a tempo to do something else. Black's bound to play ... dxc4 sooner or later anyway
[ Don't worry if you don't understand this point for now. Just accept it on faith and I'll get back to it later - JB ]
so maybe I can find something useful to do in the meantime. Well 7. Rc1 and 7. Qc2 both look interesting. I'll try 7. Rc1 today. It puts the rook on the c-file and that must be sensible. If Black then goes 7. ... dxc4 I'll be able to recapture in one move. Compared to the immediate 7. Bd3 i'll have the extra move Ra1-c1 on the board. Goody gumdrops.
7. Rc1
BLACK:
Well what to do? I could play ... dxc4 now but if I do he'll be able to recapture in a single move. It would be nice to make him develop the bishop first before I take on c4. Let's see if I can find something useful to do in the meantime. 7. ... a6 and 7. ... c6 both look good. I'll try the c-pawn today.
7. ... c6
THE END.
You can see in this game some moves appeared on the board and some moves appeared only in the players' minds but they were ALL part of the game.
So you seen despite appearances to the contrary 7. Bd3, 7. Rc1 and 7. Qc2 are all part of the same line.
EDIT:
I forgot to add the bit about why Black will have to play ... dxc4 sooner or later ...
Well it's about Black's plans in the QGD. Essentially he's going to want to play ... c5 or ... e5 at some point.
If Black doesn't play ... dxc4 he risks ending up with an isolated queen's pawn because of the pawn exchanges White could then initiate.
That probably wouldn't lose the game but neither does Black want to give up weaknesses for free so White can play on the assumption that Black will want to play ... dxc4 at some point.
Originally posted by RomanticusNo!!!You do not really lose a tempo if I lose one too.
No!!!You do not really lose a tempo if I lose one too.While White plays Bd3-Bc4 Black doesn't develop anything,so it's not as simple as you put it.
Brain still progressing Jonathan's last posts.Might take a while 🙂
My winning or lose tempi happens independently to my opponents. How much this matters is relative. If you lose a tempo and so do I, then I have still lost a tempo - for if I hadn't I'd be ahead.
Originally posted by JonathanB of LondonThink I get your point now.If you play Bd3 too soon you give up the fight for the tempo.They should write that instead of just 'loses a tempo'.Darn authors trying to confuse me 😉
OK, here's my attempt to explain the fight for tempo and also why 7. Bd3 and 7. Qc2/7. Rc1 are all part of the same line. I'll write out an imaginary game with the imaginary thought process of White and Black.
What appears in bold below is the game that is played on the board. What's not in italics is the game that is played in the imaginati ...[text shortened]... play on the assumption that Black will want to play ... dxc4 at some point.
Mahout,yes,of course you still lose a tempo.But I said 'not really'.I meant if both lose one it evens out.
But you're right,I should've said the loss is not meaningful if both sides lose one.That would've been clearer.My mistake.
Thanks all for the effort.Much appreciated 🙂