28 Jul 08
Originally posted by no1marauderThe myth of his deathbed heroism comes from one or more biographies I read in third grade--my classroom had a set of such biographies of famous Americans that were likely popular elsewhere. At that tender age, I also watched The Alamo (1960) starring Richard Widmark ad Jim Bowie.
De la Peña's journal says only 7 were captured and murdered, including Davy Crockett. Most accounts I have read say Bowie was bayoneted in his sick bed; there are conflicting accounts as to whether he ever fired a shot. What are the sources for your info?
The allegation that he surrendered comes from better and more recent, albeit still secondary and tertiary sources that I read some twenty years ago. It is well established that there are contradictory accounts about the manner of his death.
It is clear, however, that the heroics of the Anglos at the Alamo did not serve all that is good and noble and true in American culture, but quite the reverse.
Regarding Davy Crockett José Enrique de la Peña wrote, "Santa Anna answered Castrillón's intervention in Crockett's behalf with a gesture of indignation and, addressing himself to the sappers, the troops closest to him, ordered his execution."
Why do you substitute the word "murder" for the word "execution"?
28 Jul 08
Originally posted by WulebgrA summary execution of prisoners after a battle violates the rules of war and is, therefore, an illegal, deliberate killing. Also known as "murder".
The myth of his deathbed heroism comes from one or more biographies I read in third grade--my classroom had a set of such biographies of famous Americans that were likely popular elsewhere. At that tender age, I also watched The Alamo (1960) starring Richard Widmark ad Jim Bowie.
The allegation that he surrendered comes from better and more recent, ...[text shortened]... red his execution."
Why do you substitute the word "murder" for the word "execution"?
I was asking for the actual sources for your claim that "many" including Jim Bowie surrendered and then were murd ....... er, "executed".
28 Jul 08
Originally posted by no1marauderI agree that such political executions are murder, but prefer the precision of the term execution in describing the event, as it appears in the original and carries less ideological baggage amenable to the old myths.
A summary execution of prisoners after a battle violates the rules of war and is, therefore, an illegal, deliberate killing. Also known as "murder".
I was asking for the actual sources for your claim that "many" including Jim Bowie surrendered and then were murd ....... er, "executed".
I've already answered your question regarding sources. I'm sorry that I don't recall the titles of every book I read two decades ago.
28 Jul 08
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Originally posted by WulebgrJesus, don't get so touchy. I was asking a serious question for the purposes of research; if you don't remember the titles of the books and/or articles, fine.
I agree that such political executions are murder, but prefer the precision of the term execution in describing the event, as it appears in the original and carries less ideological baggage amenable to the old myths.
I've already answered your question regarding sources. I'm sorry that I don't recall the titles of every book I read two decades ago.
I don't find "execution" to be terribly precise here as usually an execution is done after a legal process.
28 Jul 08
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Originally posted by no1marauderI'm not Jesus.
Jesus, don't get so touchy. I was asking a serious question for the purposes of research; if you don't remember the titles of the books and/or articles, fine.
I don't find "execution" to be terribly precise here as usually an execution is done after a legal process.
They are good questions, and the sort I usually ask. You've pointed out that my assertion stands on a weak foundation. I regret that I cannot recall these books, because I can recall the source of almost everything I know about American history from the ~2000 books I've read on the topic through the past 35 years or so.
I also can produce the title of the Bowie book I read in third grade because I found it many years later at a yard sale, bought it, and it is sitting in a box in my basement. If you want that title, I'll get it.
Some legal processes follow stricter guidelines than others. Santa Anna was a lot like George W. Bush in that he had confidence in the legality and justice of his actions. History treats neither as well as he would have liked.
28 Jul 08
Originally posted by crazycolNo. I keep up on fishing news from Fly Tyer, its sister publication American Angler, and such others as Fly Rod and Reel, [Fly Fisherman[/i], and Northwest Flyfishing. I receive North American Fisherman as a life member of the organization that puts it out, but read only bits and pieces.
The real question here is do you read Angling Times Weekly???
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28 Jul 08
Originally posted by TyrannosauruschexIt might if you're Texan - Texas was not part of the US when that battle was fought. As for the Alamo, I think Ozzy had the right idea. *immediately runs like a coward from everything the Texans launch at him*
I have a quite streight question today that maybe some americans might answer for me.
When you are playing a mexican at chess does the saying "remember the alamo" inspire you to make better moves?
28 Jul 08
Originally posted by TyrannosauruschexI don't know if the OP really thought he was being funny, but this thread is really more of a trollish, inflammatory one, and one of the forum moderators should really move it to a more appropriate forum. I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but it really doesn't belong in this forum.
I have a quite streight question today that maybe some americans might answer for me.
When you are playing a mexican at chess does the saying "remember the alamo" inspire you to make better moves?
28 Jul 08
Originally posted by Mad RookGet out of my topic - if anything is inflamatory it is you!
I don't know if the OP really thought he was being funny, but this thread is really more of a trollish, inflammatory one, and one of the forum moderators should really move it to a more appropriate forum. I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but it really doesn't belong in this forum.
28 Jul 08
Originally posted by TyrannosauruschexSorry, you can't draw me into a fight with that kind of response. Homie don't play that game. And you still want to claim this topic as your own? Be my guest, but I'd be ashamed of starting a thread like this in a "Chess Only" forum.
Get out of my topic - if anything is inflamatory it is you!
And I won't respond again in this thread; It's a waste of my time. But I'm sure you'll just have to get the last word in. 😉
28 Jul 08
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T-Chex does raise the critically important chess question concerned with the joys of winning and the sorrows of loss. Although I do not celebrate with Texans that cling to certain myths, I do agree that a chess game can carry these political/historical overtones.
One case in point for those old enough to remember: Fischer v. Spassky was more that a freak against a gentleman. The freak, an individualist, represented the United States, where the chess traditions were pitiful, taking on the Soviet machine. That he prevailed could be read as testament not only to his chess genius (even if he was a moron on other matters), but to the economic and political system in which he thrived (even though he denounced it later).
More recently, but lacking any real significance, I played six blitz games against some chap outside of Saigon. That we ended the knight with three wins each was somehow reminiscent of the war that waged in my childhood.
Much of the pleasure of chess is the way it connects people all over the world. Sometimes little battles over fine points of ideology, or old prejudices that could have died long ago, can be fought without bloodshed. I think that the point OP (whatever that term means) was getting at with his comments regarding that shameful episode of American imperialism.
BTW, the Alamo today sits astride the San Antonio River Walk, which is a very nice feature of a downtown business district that other cities could emulate.