The Ruy Lopez

Originally posted by Jakal
In the Ruy Lopez, if on move 4 the white Bishop takes Knight on c6, should black take back with the b7 or d7 pawn. The books say to capture toward the middle, but engines suggest to take with the d7 pawn (i.e., the Queen's pawn). What is better and why?

As Tyrannosauruschex said, dxc6 frees your light bishop much more so than b x c6. Also, bxc6 gives you an isolated a pawn. In general, the pawn on d7 can clog up your position, including restricting the movement of your queen. I'm sure b x c6 has a point or 2 in its favor, but d x c6 seems like the stronger move even though you're capturing away from the center.

Originally posted by Jakal
In the Ruy Lopez, if on move 4 the white Bishop takes Knight on c6, should black take back with the b7 or d7 pawn. The books say to capture toward the middle, but engines suggest to take with the d7 pawn (i.e., the Queen's pawn). What is better and why?

Hi Jakal.

After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6

The preferred reply is 4....dxc6 simply because it tactically holds the e-pawn.

4...dxc6 5.Nxe5 Qd4!



And White's e-pawn will go with a check forcing Qe2.
White wants more from the opening than Queens off on move 7
and facing his opponent's two Bishops.
In the past Black scored heavily from this position.

If 4....bxc6 5.Nxe4 Qg5 wins the g-pawn but often misplaces the Queen.

4...bxc6 is theorectically playable but an inexperianced player
can get himself into all kinds of bother.

Witness this, Bellomo v the brillaintly named player. Claude Wolfangel 1995.



And Black is losing a piece.

Edit:
Forgot to add - capturing towards the centre is an excellent rule
of thumb - but like all thumb rules it can be ignored if the position
demands it.

Originally posted by Jie
That would result in a generation of ignorant nihilists walking about in a zombie state unable to contribute to meaningful discussions on chess. I thought the OTB club taught its people to do their talking OTB?

Well to be honest I don't play the Black side of the Ruy anymore.
I prefer the Latvian gambit - it's far more sound for Black.

Originally posted by Korch
Only ignorant patzer like you will accuse in ignorance someone who recommends Schliemann (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5), which is sometimes used even in top GM level. Or maybe you are going to claim that Carlsen and Radjabov are ignorant?

You know I don't respond to idiots but are the GM's who don't play the Schliemann, but play the Ruy Lopez patzers?

Originally posted by Jakal
In the Ruy Lopez, if on move 4 the white Bishop takes Knight on c6, should black take back with the b7 or d7 pawn. The books say to capture toward the middle, but engines suggest to take with the d7 pawn (i.e., the Queen's pawn). What is better and why?

Jake I would say get a chess book or two and switch off your engine. I have never heard of anyone studying opening theory in this manner and if you play with real chess players in your city, they would tell you the same.

Even in friendly "quick games" with chess players you can try out different openings. Don't be stuck like an old man to only one or two openings, try a couple you will lose a bit but learn at the same time.

Originally posted by Jie
You know I don't respond to idiots but are the GM's who don't play the Schliemann, but play the Ruy Lopez patzers?

According to your idiot logic if GMs play Ruy Lopez then Schliemann (like other possible replies) is unsound.

P.S. You are still allowed to show me your primacy in RHP blitz 🙂

Originally posted by Jie
Jake I would say get a chess book or two and switch off your engine. I have never heard of anyone studying opening theory in this manner and if you play with real chess players in your city, they would tell you the same.

Even in friendly "quick games" with chess players you can try out different openings. Don't be stuck like an old man to only one or two openings, try a couple you will lose a bit but learn at the same time.

I don't only play one or 2 types of openings. I was just curious about that specific move in the Ruy Lopez. I also never said that I study opening theory using an engine. We're a chess community and I just wanted to hear the opinions of stronger players.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi Jakal.

After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6

The preferred reply is 4....dxc6 simply because it tactically holds the e-pawn.

4...dxc6 5.Nxe5 Qd4!

[fen]r1b1kbnr/1pp2ppp/p1p5/4N3/3qP3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R[/fen]

And White's e-pawn will go with a check forcing Qe2.
White wants more from the opening than Queens off on move 7
and facin ...[text shortened]... llent rule
of thumb - but like all thumb rules it can be ignored if the position
demands it.

Thanks a lot Greenpawn. I really appreciate your input. I was very valuable.

Originally posted by Jakal
I don't only play one or 2 types of openings. I was just curious about that specific move in the Ruy Lopez. I also never said that I study opening theory using an engine. We're a chess community and I just wanted to hear the opinions of stronger players.

I wondering if my two pence worth of advice was helpful.

I'm not looking for a pat on the back - but did I nail it, was
it clear, did I dfift off target.

So if ever I'm asked this question again I'm safe with this reply
or do I need to refine it.

There are a couple of other good chess players on this thread who could
also have helped but when they see each other's name they just go
completely bonkers.

Which is a pity because when either do give out advice it is usually
helpful, sound and thought provoking.

Edit 1 - we crossed posts - cheers.

Originally posted by Jakal
I don't only play one or 2 types of openings. I was just curious about that specific move in the Ruy Lopez. I also never said that I study opening theory using an engine. We're a chess community and I just wanted to hear the opinions of stronger players.

Are you in the TSM club? I could have played you a friendly game but I'm a bit busy at the moment. See the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruy_Lopez if you want to learn more on the Ruy.

Originally posted by Jie
Are you in the TSM club? I could have played you a friendly game but I'm a bit busy at the moment. See the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruy_Lopez if you want to learn more on the Ruy.

Only someone completely ignorant of chess would suggest wiki as a primary source to study an opening! 🙄

Here's a decent site with analysis of the Ruy: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/adam.bozon/ruylopez.htm