09 Jun 07
3 edits
Originally posted by RahimK1) I did not say that 3...Bb4 is the best. I did say that its playable. So learn to read.
Well well well....
Why don't you put in the position after 7...Nxe4 into chesslive, set 2500 limit for both players and hit search.
6 total games, 4 white wins, 2 draws....
[Event "EU-ch 2nd"]
[Site "Ohrid"]
[Date "2001.06.01"]
[Round "12"]
[White "Conquest,Stuart"]
[Black "Piket,Jeroen"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C42"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 Bb4
2) Lets check these four games in which white wins:
Conquest - Piket: Black had equal position in opening, middle game and only in endgame (R + knights against R + bishops) white had a little more comfortable position due to their bishop pair. Actually black lost in one move - 40....Ne6?? which looks like time trouble mistake - after 40...bxc5 black is ok.
Kinderman-Pavasovic: Black reached equal position in opening and should not have play 15...Qf6? - after 15...Qc7 position is equal.
Najer - Mamedjarov: Black reached equal position and should not have play 15....Nce4 - after 15....a5 position is equal.
Glek - Jussupow: Black equalised in opening, got initiative with some advantage in middle game which did let out after 28...Rf8? (28...Rd8 -/+) and lost after 29...Qf6? (29....Qh5!?).
So white did not get any opening advantage in these games.
I`m "sorry" to say it but you failed again 😀
09 Jun 07
2 edits
Originally posted by RahimKGM`s have reached their titles, because they does not look only on numbers (they are chess players not accountants 😉 ) - they are also analyse games which have been played in these lines.
Any smart Corr. GM would see the stats, look at the games and avoid the weaker 3...Bb4 move 😵
09 Jun 07
Originally posted by KorchAfter 1.g4 e5 2.f3 is "playable" but it's crap!
1) I did not say that 3...Bb4 is the best. I did say that its playable. So learn to read.
2) Lets check these four games in which white wins:
Conquest - Piket: Black had equal position in opening, middle game and only in endgame (R + knights against R + bishops) white had a little more comfortable position due to their bishop pair. Actually black lost i ...[text shortened]... not get any opening advantage in these games.
I`m "sorry" to say it but you failed again 😀
There is a reason why 3...Nc6 is more popular then 3...Bb4 at the Gm level. I wonder why the keep playing 3...Nc6 and not 3...Bb4. Could it be that Nc6 is better?
I looked through all the games already. The point is that 2500+ players made those mistakes and White won.
So that leaves me with the question, why even suggest a move that is playable if it isn't best?
Surround yourself with greatness and one day you will be great. Play great moves and one day you might be a great player.
09 Jun 07
Originally posted by KorchUsing your own words, GM's analysed the position and they keep playing Nc6. Why is that?
GM`s have reached their titles, because they does not look only on numbers (they are chess players not accountants 😉 ) - they are also analyse games which have been played in these lines.
Lets look at the proof shall we:
3...Nc6 544 games 2504 Elo
3...Bb4 206 games 2485 Elo
Check a different site:
3...Nc6 2,976 games
3...Bb4 270 games
I'm sorry can you read that? 2,976 games vs 270 games?
Frame that buddy.
Have you considered suing your brains for nonsupport?
You're acquitting yourself in a way that no jury ever would.
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by RahimKIf you are calling such a crap 1.g4 e5 2.f3 "playable" its your problem.
After 1.g4 e5 2.f3 is "playable" but it's crap!
There is a reason why 3...Nc6 is more popular then 3...Bb4 at the Gm level. I wonder why the keep playing 3...Nc6 and not 3...Bb4. Could it be that Nc6 is better?
I looked through all the games already. The point is that 2500+ players made those mistakes and White won.
So that leaves me with the que ...[text shortened]... ess and one day you will be great. Play great moves and one day you might be a great player.
If after 3....Bb4 even GM with ELO 2500+ did not find how to get opening advantage, then its playable. If you misunderstood, I can repeat it again: In these games white won, because they overplayed opponent in middle game or endgame, but not in opening. These games shows that 3...Bb4 is not worse than 3...Nc6. - I would say that these moves are equal.
People plays 3...Nc6 more often because: 1) 3.Nc3 is not so popular response to Petroff - most of strong players are playing 3.Nxe5, so most players does not feel obliged to prepare something special against 3.Nc3 2) 3....Nc6 lead to Four knights - well known opening in which most players have more experience and they know how to get equal position.
If line is not popular it does not mean that it is bad. - Chess fashion is changing all the time.
And if 3....Bb4 is so bad, why such experienced Petroff experts like GMs Artur Yusupoff (have you heard about this GM?) are playing it?
"So that leaves me with the question, why even suggest a move that is playable if it isn't best?" - Have you heard about opening opening lines in which player can choose between two (or more) good and equal moves? Also have you heard about chess psychology?
And GMs are choosing their openings/opening lines due to their personal opinion and experience in this opening/opening line, not statistic.
So learn to use your own head - then maybe you will become GM soon 😀
10 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by RahimKLear to read - as I have mentioned - proof can be particular lines which shows sure way for advantage, not numbers itself.
Using your own words, GM's analysed the position and they keep playing Nc6. Why is that?
Lets look at the proof shall we:
3...Nc6 544 games 2504 Elo
3...Bb4 206 games 2485 Elo
Check a different site:
3...Nc6 2,976 games
3...Bb4 270 games
I'm sorry can you read that? 2,976 games vs 270 games?
Frame that buddy.
Have you considered su ...[text shortened]... g your brains for nonsupport?
You're acquitting yourself in a way that no jury ever would.
So your "proof" is BS.
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by KorchShow me a line where White gets a signficant advantage from the opening. It has to be a master level opening. No crappy openings and bad moves. Best White moves and best Black moves.
Lear to read - as I have mentioned - proof can be particular lines which shows sure way for advantage, not numbers itself.
So your "proof" is BS.
Being a tempo up or possesing the Bishop Pair in that position in my opinion is enough for White to get a slight advantage out of the opening. It's not much but all these little things add up in the end.
10 Jun 07
So let me ask you this. Why do you play CC?
Isn't part of the reason to learn openings better? And how do you learn them better?
Do you not consult books/db's and then use the numbers, look over the games, form your own opinion and then pick the best line which you like?
We had many discussions on how to use db's and all the db's I have say 3...Nc6 is the better move over 3...Bb4 and I agree with it. I know the 4 knights it boring but I still play it with 3...Nc6 and then I play Bb4 as soon as I can after that. Put aside personal taste, how familiar you think white is with the 4 knights etc...
3...Nc6 is the better move.
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by RahimKDo you know "the best moves" in each opening? And how will you base opinion that these moves are "the best" ?
Show me a line where White gets a signficant advantage from the opening. It has to be a master level opening. No crappy openings and bad moves. Best White moves and best Black moves.
Being a tempo up or possesing the Bishop Pair in that position in my opinion is enough for White to get a slight advantage out of the opening. It's not much but all these little things add up in the end.m nor searching for the best moves
Bishop pair itself gives nothing if position is not open enough. There are many lines (for example in Nimzovich) in which black can equalise with knight and bishop against bishop pair.
10 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by RahimKI`m repeating again - in my opinion 3...Nc6 and 3...Bb4 are equal moves. Equal = none of them is "the best".
Alright, time to go to sleep now.
I will leave you with one thing to ponder about.
3...Bb4 is playable but not the best move which you admit to.
So why are you suggesting weaker moves?
Personal taste because 3...Nc6 leads to "dull" games?
Especially after 4.Bb5.
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by KorchO god!!
Do you know "the best moves" in each opening? And how will you base opinion that these moves are "the best" ?
Bishop pair itself gives nothing if position is not open enough. There are many lines (for example in Nimzovich) in which black can equalise with knight and bishop against bishop pair.
I've asked G. Kasp, Kramnik, Anand and all these other great GM's etc... and they told me that 3...Nc6 is the best move in that position.
In Fact, it is possible that 3000 different players have told me that 3...Nc6 is better and hence they have played it compared to 300 different players who think 3...Bb4 is better and they played it.
How do you learn from Fisher? Tal? From their games right....It's all there in the history.
Just have to know how to use it. I'm really curious how you use your db's now? Care to explain?
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by RahimKI`m playing CC to improve my openings and I`m consulting DBs, but let me to quote opinion in which I agree:
So let me ask you this. Why do you play CC?
Isn't part of the reason to learn openings better? And how do you learn them better?
Do you not consult books/db's and then use the numbers, look over the games, form your own opinion and then pick the best line which you like?
We had many discussions on how to use db's and all the db's I have say 3...Nc6 ...[text shortened]... e, how familiar you think white is with the 4 knights etc...
3...Nc6 is the better move.
"I think numbers can be very useful - if you know what lies behind the numbers!
I don't mind playing an opening line that has only lost on GM level if I know these
losses came from endgame errors or something else that had nothing to do with
the opening. But if I knew the losses came because, say the line led to a difficult endgame
then I would of course try to find another line.
Numbers can therefore not substitute thought, preparation and analysis but they can surely
act as a guideline without any warranties given"
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by KorchI'm going to have to disagree on that one.
I`m repeating again - in my opinion 3...Nc6 and 3...Bb4 are equal moves. Equal = none of them is "the best".
3...Nc6 > 3...Bb4
But how do you prove this? Chess programs can't be trusted. They just don't understand.
You feel like looking through 3000 GM games?