29 Mar 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemNaw, my reasoning is not flawed. I was messing around with chesslab.com with the position and gave the lines will watching tv. I know I can find better moves as white and yes in that line I did mess up but that's not the point.
Well, you should have taken a longer look. You managed to pick the correct side with the advantage, but some of your reasoning is flawed.
In particular, one of the lines you gave:
1.a6 f6 2.Kd2 e6 3.Ke3 g6 4.Kf4 f5 5.Kf3 g5 6.Ke3 e5 7.Kf3 f4 8.Kf2
e4 9.Ke2 g4 10.Kf2 f3 11.Kf1 e3 12.Ke1 g3 13.Kf1 e2+ 14.Ke1 g2 15.Kf2
[fen]1k6/8/P1P5/8/8/5p2/4 ...[text shortened]... 1/8 b - - 0 15[/fen]
is actually won for [b]Black after 15...g1Q+! followed by 16...e1Q+.[/b]
I was super super blitzing with no concentration.
30 Mar 06
Originally posted by RahimKLemme get this straight.
Naw, my reasoning is not flawed. I was messing around with chesslab.com with the position and gave the lines will watching tv. I know I can find better moves as white and yes in that line I did mess up but that's not the point.
I was super super blitzing with no concentration.
- You claimed to solve the puzzle in six seconds
- But you posted a line where Black actually wins instead of White
- Yet somehow, this is not a flaw in reasoning (??)
- Yet you feel the need to make excuses
- And you also claim that in this type of position, your insight is better than a computer's (????)
Wow. You sure build an impressive pile of crap, my friend.
30 Mar 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemThe line gives was wrong yes, but the concept was right and thats what I got in 6 seconds and really thats what counts. Given time I could find the exact lines.
Lemme get this straight.
- You claimed to solve the puzzle in six seconds
- But you posted a line where Black actually wins instead of White
- Yet somehow, this is not a flaw in reasoning (??)
- Yet you feel the need to make excuses
- And you also claim that in this type of position, your insight is better than a computer's (????)
Wow. You sure build an impressive pile of crap, my friend.
I claim in certain positions human insight is better then computer not my insight neccesarrily.
30 Mar 06
Originally posted by RahimKThere are many positions where a computer will not find the correct move, but where some humans can use their intuition with success. The position I posted in Thread 39948 is a case in point.
I claim in certain positions human insight is better then computer not my insight neccesarrily.
30 Mar 06
Originally posted by RahimKConcepts are worthless without the ability to calculate and ensure that you really get the desired result. Calculation is truly what counts. If you had played your line in a real game, you would have lost, despite your keen grasp of the concept. 😛
The line gives was wrong yes, but the concept was right and thats what I got in 6 seconds and really thats what counts. Given time I could find the exact lines.
I claim in certain positions human insight is better then computer not my insight neccesarrily.
30 Mar 06
Originally posted by WulebgrAgreed...although it is amusing how those positions are becoming more and more rare as software gets better. I was a bit astonished that Fritz 9 solved this one in a mere 25s.
There are many positions where a computer will not find the correct move, but where some humans can use their intuition with success. The position I posted in Thread 39948 is a case in point.
31 Mar 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemI wouldn't have been watching tv while playing a real game or blitz for that matter and I don't play blitz and don't intend to for several years and hence I would not have played that line.
Concepts are worthless without the ability to calculate and ensure that you really get the desired result. Calculation is truly what counts. If you had played your line in a real game, you would have lost, despite your keen grasp of the concept. 😛
You could calculate all you want, but if you don't know the general concept you wouldn't get anywhere. Knowing the concepts helps you in selecting candidate moves and thus you stop wasting your time on calculating bad moves.
Yes my line was wrong. My mistake.
31 Mar 06
Originally posted by WulebgrA master from our club posted several puzzles from an endgame manual that fritz cannot solve even though to use the move seems pretty simple if you think about it.
There are many positions where a computer will not find the correct move, but where some humans can use their intuition with success. The position I posted in Thread 39948 is a case in point.
I belive they are from some endgame course by Dvorseky but i'm to tired to go on yahoo groups and find the puzzles.
31 Mar 06
Originally posted by caffienexPlease tell me where black erred:
Black can easily force a mate.
Originally posted by Wulebgr
I played it against Fritz:
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1894.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Mason, J."]
[Black "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "1k6/4ppp1/2P5/P7/8/8/8/2K5 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "21"]
[EventDate "2005.12.31"]
[SourceDate "2005.12.31"]
1. a6 {0} g5 {2} 2. Kd2 {2} f6 {2} 3. Ke3 {5} f5 {4} 4. Kf3 {6} e6 {2} 5. Ke2 {
0} g4 {2} 6. Kf2 {1} f4 {6} 7. Kf1 {0} g3 {2} 8. Kg2 {10} e5 {0} 9. Kf3 {13}
e4+ {0} 10. Kg2 {3} e3 {1} 11. Kf3 {1} 1-0
31 Mar 06
1 edit
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemReally. Would you consider say Fritz to calculate well? I got a couple of problem posted on our club website which so called good calculating computers cannot solve. You need human intuition or concepts if you may to solve them. Something which comptures don't posses.
Computers have proven your statement wrong. If you can calculate well, you really don't need to know many 'concepts'.
I admit I my line was wrong but what part of I was watching tv and writing don't you get. No one's perfect.
31 Mar 06
1 edit
Originally posted by RahimKThe positions that computers can't solve are the exception, not the rule. Calculation has already won the day over human intuition, as GM's are beaten routinely by the strongest machines now.
Really. Would you consider say Fritz to calculate well? I got a couple of problem posted on our club website which so called good calculating computers cannot solve. You need human intuition or concepts if you may to solve them. Something which comptures don't posses.
I admit I my line was wrong but what part of I was watching tv and writing don't you get. No one's perfect.
Edit: Let's try Fritz 9 on some of your 'unsolveable' puzzles. If you'll give me the link to your club website, I'll run them on Fritz tonight.
01 Apr 06
2 edits
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemCan't argue with that. I still thing intution makes a difference though. Thats why the Gms working with computers play much better then the computer by itself. They said during the Anand + computer vs Gm+computer that doing this the rating of them combine was 3200 while a computer by itself must be around 2900ish.
The positions that computers can't solve are the exception, not the rule. Calculation has already won the day over human intuition, as GM's are beaten routinely by the strongest machines now.
Edit: Let's try Fritz 9 on some of your 'unsolveable' puzzles. If you'll give me the link to your club website, I'll run them on Fritz tonight.
I'll get the puzzles of the site and post them here. I haven't gone through them but a master from our website studying an endgame book put them into fritz 6 I think and it couldn't find the right moves. Maybe a endgame tablebase might help. His might not have had one.
Ya it was fritz 6. Here we go, they are from a book he is reading on the endgame:
Example 1:
White: Kd5, Nd3, Pe4,f5,g4,h5
Black: Kd7, Bd4, Pe5,f7,g7,h6
White to play for win.
Example 2:
White: Ke8, Ne6, Pe4,f5,g6,h5
Black: Kg8, Bd6, Pe5,f6,g7,h6
White to play for win.