10 Sep 06
2 edits
Originally posted by Shinidokihow does white play Qxd7 after 1. Nd7 Nxd7 ??
haha...I think this is one of those interesting positions that appear obvoius , but the deeper you look the more complex and uncertain the conclusion is.
After Nd7 I think black can gain counter-play.
here what I found.....suggested improvements welcome.
Nd7 Nxd7 Qxd7+ [Bxe6+? Kh8 Bxd7 Rf7] kh8 Qxd7 Rae8+ Be2 [Kf1 Rd8] Re7 Qb5 Qd4 [Rfe8 also ...[text shortened]... counterply for the lost material -- which may well indicate 1.nd7 is in actaul fact a poor move.
Nd7 doesn't win anything after 1. Nd7? Nxd7 2. Qxe6+ Kh8 or 2. Bxe6+ Kh8 3. Bxd7 Rf7!
I would give aenrko a cookie for seeing that black can exploit the e file lineup after 2. Bxe6+. 4. Bb5?! Re7
or 4. Qb5 Qd4 with threats all over the place.
or 4. Qd3 Rd8 with a pin.
or White can play 4. Bxf5 Qxf5 to win a pawn but then white's lack of development and central king is unhealthy.
With that said, I guess I would say... Bd2 or b3 (from the starting position) to bring out the bishop and castle the king away.
10 Sep 06
2 edits
Originally posted by RahimKHave I gone blind I've looked at this for ages and can't see anything? I was expecting to see a 4/5 combination move for white, but have to confess if I was white I would probably play BD2 to start developing the bishop and castle the king queenside, as the king/queen is vunerable with the queen parked in fornt of it on a pawn free file. By your comment of look again etc either I have missed something obvious (if so it's after looking at the position for over an hour!!!) or maybe perhaps the board is not set up correctly? ie black played NF6? then the position allows white to play the obvious Nd7 (could that be it I wonder?)
I think all of you guys are missing the point here.
Look at the position again with fresh eyes. White to move.
10 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by RahimKIs the point that the question is 'who has the advantage' not who has a winning combination? if so I would much rather be white than black, the white knight is well positioned causing black problems in development, particularly his knight (and therefore also the rook stuck beside it) and may have to use up a move to move his king off that white diagonal to h8
I think all of you guys are missing the point here.
Look at the position again with fresh eyes. White to move.
10 Sep 06
Originally posted by RahimKThis position looks interesting!
White to move. Does any side have an advantage and is a win possible for either side with decent play?
[fen]rn3rk1/ppp3pp/4bq2/2b1Np2/2B2P2/8/PPP1Q1PP/R1B1K2R w KQ - 0 1[/fen]
My guess is that the answer is no. Due to the uncastled king, white should probably try to resist the temption of winning material and aim for 0-0-0 with Bd2. After 1.Bd2 I prefer the white position, but I don't think that a win can be forced.
10 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by RahimKI tried Ng4 first but I now think the secret to this one may lie in the manouvre Nf3-g5
White to move. Does any side have an advantage and is a win possible for either side with decent play?
[fen]rn3rk1/ppp3pp/4bq2/2b1Np2/2B2P2/8/PPP1Q1PP/R1B1K2R w KQ - 0 1[/fen]
1.Nf3 Bxc4? 2.Qxc4+ picking up c5
1..... Re8 2.Ng5 when Blacks best may be Bxc4 3.Qxe8+
1.... Bf7 2.Ng5 and I haven't worked out the ramifications of this yet but I think White can hold the exchange.
Then it becomes a question as to whether Black has any meaningful counterplay based on White's central King...
10 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by Mister MeanerI've looked at this for ages, I'm sure there is not a combination move on, I think the question is simply 'who has the best position' rather than there being a line of playing giving a signicant advantage and that is IMO white (my next move would be Bd2). I think Bf7 is the correct move against your suggested Nf3, but the knight is doing a good job where it is hindering black's development I would leave it there for now
I tried Ng4 first but I now think the secret to this one may lie in the manouvre Nf3-g5
1.Nf3 Bxc4? 2.Qxc4+ picking up c5
1..... Re8 2.Ng5 when Blacks best may be Bxc4 3.Qxe8+
1.... Bf7 2.Ng5 and I haven't worked out the ramifications of this yet but I think White can hold the exchange.
Then it becomes a question as to whether Black has any meaningful counterplay based on White's central King...
10 Sep 06
6 edits
Originally posted by tmetzleras you propose it
This is just a quick look, but Nd7 wins a piece for white at the very least.
Nd7!! Nb8xNd7
Bc4xBe6+ Kh8
Be6xNd7 Winning a piece for white
if
1 Nd7 Nxd7
2 Bxd6+ Kh8
3 Bxd7 then Bc4+
4 Bd2 Bxd2
5 Qxd2 Qe7+
6 Qe2 Qxd7 the white bishop is lost
whites and blacks will have lost a knight and a bishop but the whites will still have a weak position
and what if
1 Nd7 Nxd7
2 Bxd6+ Kh8
3 Pc3 Tae8 then white Bishop is lost because of the black Queen and the black tower
ps:sorry for the edits, I confused bishops and knights
10 Sep 06
Originally posted by Shinidoki[laughing] of course
haha...I think this is one of those interesting positions that appear obvoius , but the deeper you look the more complex and uncertain the conclusion is.
After Nd7 I think black can gain counter-play.
here what I found.....suggested improvements welcome.
Nd7 Nxd7 Qxd7+ [Bxe6+? Kh8 Bxd7 Rf7] kh8 Qxd7 Rae8+ Be2 [Kf1 Rd8] Re7 Qb5 Qd4 [Rfe8 also ...[text shortened]... counterply for the lost material -- which may well indicate 1.nd7 is in actaul fact a poor move.
just look deeper
white Queen can't take d7 because she's at e2 !
10 Sep 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemno because then black Q f7
1.Nd7 Nxd7 2.Qxe6+ and you're losing a piece or the exchange, aren't you?
Qxd7 Qxc4
then the white king can't move because of Queen and Bishop
the white Queen can't threaten the king whereas the black Queen can mate the king easily
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10 Sep 06
Originally posted by HFRorbisWith Qf7 , black is still down the exchange with that line.
no because then black Q f7
Qxd7 Qxc4
then the white king can't move because of Queen and Bishop
the white Queen can't threaten the king whereas the black Queen can mate the king easily
1.Nd7 Nxd7
2.Qxe6+ Qf7
3. Qe6xQf7+ Rf8xQf7
4. Bc4xRf7+ KxBf7
Black now has: 1Rook, 1 Knight and 1 Bishop
White has: 2 Rooks and 1 Bishop
10 Sep 06
2 edits
Originally posted by tmetzlerright
With Qf7 , black is still down the exchange with that line.
1.Nd7 Nxd7
2.Qxe6+ [b]Qf7
3. Qe6xQf7+ Rf8xQf7
4. Bc4xRf7+ KxBf7
Black now has: 1Rook, 1 Knight and 1 Bishop
White has: 2 Rooks and 1 Bishop[/b]
yes now I see that this line is bad
what about this line for blacks :
1 Nd7 Nxd7
2 Qxe6+ Kh8
3Qxd7 Rad8
4 Qb5 Rfe8 (only solution to avoid d Queen + d1 King and Queen threatenning c5 Bishop)
5 Kf1 Rd1++ check mate !
if you have improvements for whites go ahead