Win wins in 517 moves

Originally posted by Spacetime
I tried to paste these moves into CB9 and it crashed it. Is there anyway to paste the moves in so you can watch it? Also, how does it work if you try to paste moves into a preset board position. In theory will this work?

This is downright mind boggling and shows how complicated chess really is. I saw this position in Wikipedia but they don't have the moves posted.

Look at this web site

http://www.xs4all.nl/~timkr/

You will find the game there under chess. I think you can play it through.

Originally posted by Shinidoki
Chess is much more than a MERE tourlament rule.

Absolutely otherwise why bother with help mates and self mates on cylindrical boards and so on in puzzles.

No one is going to mate in 500+ moves over the board but this is just an academic task like calculating pi. Presumably people with too much time on their hands seek to find the longest possible sequence of moves leading to a forced win.

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
Yes its apparently true.

[fen]8/3r4/8/6n1/5k2/1b6/3K3N/7Q[/fen]

white to move and make 517 moves until the first capture when black, obviously, will resign.

Can anybody post a solution without cheating?

I doubt even a GM could get the solution completely correct.

Originally posted by chesskid001
I doubt even a GM could get the solution completely correct.

No one could. This must have taken a super computer with an experimental 7 piece tablebase or something like that.

One wonders what the longest forced win with 8 pieces will be?

... and one day will someone work it out with 16!

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
In a game this would be a draw by the 50 move rule

... but forcing a win in 500+ moves is still pretty neat.

How does this force a win?

If someone doesn't know the rules then fine. But anyone who knows the rules would claim a draw at 50 moves and hence it is not a forced win in the actual sense.

Playing chess = following the rules.

I know what you are saying but I just think it's a waste of time.

Originally posted by RahimK
How does this force a win?

If someone doesn't know the rules then fine. But anyone who knows the rules would claim a draw at 50 moves and hence it is not a forced win in the actual sense.

Playing chess = following the rules.

I know what you are saying but I just think it's a waste of time.

If you ever play kasparov, and get to a K+N+N (you) vs K+P (kasp) endgame you would really eat those words.


when People ask you, what would you say;-

"oh, it was drawn"!???

Originally posted by Shinidoki
If you ever play kasparov, and get to a K+N+N (you) vs K+P (kasp) endgame you would really eat those words.


when People ask you, what would you say;-

"oh, it was drawn"!???

He has a pawn. Big difference.

Once the pawn is gone it's a draw.

50 move rule. No pawn moves!! or capture.

Originally posted by RahimK
He has a pawn. Big difference.

Once the pawn is gone it's a draw.

50 move rule. No pawn moves!! or capture.

Woah!?

....If you have 2N+K vs. K+P you can win! (you know that right?) provided you don't take the pawn.

these Endgames can take as long as 170 moves to successfully mate from (assuming best defence), with a good chance of the 50 move-rule being broken.

** so yes, that pawn DOES MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE, the difference between a theoritical win and a draw infact.

Originally posted by Shinidoki
Woah!?

....If you have 2N+K vs. K+P you can win! (you know that right?) provided you don't take the pawn.

these Endgames can take as long as 170 moves to successfully mate from (assuming best defence), with a good chance of the 50 move-rule being broken.

** so yes, that pawn DOES MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE, the difference between a theoritical win and a draw infact.

Your aren't understand my point.

Once the pawn moves, the 50 move rule restarts. So as long as the pawn moves every 50 moves it's not a draw.

In the position posted there are no pawns, and the capture occurs after 50 moves, thus it's a draw.


That's what my argument is about. What is the point of this 517 move win when it's a draw. It's not a forced win according the rules of chess.

Originally posted by RahimK
Your aren't understand my point.

Once the pawn moves, the 50 move rule restarts. So as long as the pawn moves every 50 moves it's not a draw.

In the position posted there are no pawns, and the capture occurs after 50 moves, thus it's a draw.


That's what my argument is about. What is the point of this 517 move win when it's a draw. It's not a forced win according the rules of chess.

We are not talking about an actual game here. We are talking theory. From the given position there is a win in 500+ moves if we disregard the 50 move rule or if FIDE decides to change it.

... but even Kasparov would be unable to calculate such a series of moves. If 2 super GMs were playing one would either blunder (make a small inaccuracy) resulting in an earlier win, they would agree a draw or a draw would occur by repetition or a perpetual irrespective of whether we have a 50 move rule.

Do you not consider help mates, self mates, etc chess puzzles?

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
We are not talking about an actual game here. We are talking theory. From the given position there is a win in 500+ moves if we disregard the 50 move rule or if FIDE decides to change it.

... but even Kasparov would be unable to calculate such a series of moves. If 2 super GMs were playing one would either blunder (make a small inaccuracy) resulting i ...[text shortened]... hether we have a 50 move rule.

Do you not consider help mates, self mates, etc chess puzzles?

If we disregard the 50 move rule. Why not disregard castling?
Disregard En-passant?

Chess Puzzles have to follow chess rules in my opinion otherwise it's pointless.

White to win in 517 moves disregarding 50 move rule. Acceptable, sounds dumb though don't you think?

Just stating my opinion. This is the way I see it. In real life this would not be useful so why bother.

Originally posted by RahimK
If we disregard the 50 move rule. Why not disregard castling?
Disregard En-passant?

Chess Puzzles have to follow chess rules in my opinion otherwise it's pointless.

White to win in 517 moves disregarding 50 move rule. Acceptable, sounds dumb though don't you think?

Just stating my opinion. This is the way I see it. In real life this would not be useful so why bother.

Oh comeon'....castling-50 move rule is a very bad comparision....

castling is of major tactical and strategical importance to the game (and so is En passant) whereas, the 50 move rule is just simply to stop games dragging on forever, its rarely even used.

Originally posted by RahimK
If we disregard the 50 move rule. Why not disregard castling?
Disregard En-passant?

Chess Puzzles have to follow chess rules in my opinion otherwise it's pointless.

White to win in 517 moves disregarding 50 move rule. Acceptable, sounds dumb though don't you think?

Just stating my opinion. This is the way I see it. In real life this would not be useful so why bother.

Why bother to calculate pi to 6 million decimal places? After the first dozen it serves no practical use!

Originally posted by Shinidoki
Oh comeon'....castling-50 move rule is a very bad comparision....

castling is of major tactical and strategical importance to the game (and so is En passant) whereas, the 50 move rule is just simply to stop games dragging on forever, its rarely even used.

Yes, dragging on forever. Who wants to sit there and be tortured to death as white finishes you off on move 517?

Certainly not me and I will claim the draw if it's available. Just rememeber that so go try it on someone else.

Cheers 🙂

It's all good, no harsh feeling right guys? 😛

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
Why bother to calculate pi to 6 million decimal places? After the first dozen it serves no practical use!

No idea, as an Engineer I could careless what pi is after the first several decimal places.

The key phrase we use: if the error is within 10%, it's all good. You'll be suprised how many things are designed using this 🙂