Well I was hoping some of the higher rated player would answer but they did not.
I played Nh6 in that position. I figured might as well get ready to castle and then grab the pawn after.
I did look at the line:
Qxb2 Nbd2 Qc3 Bf2 etc...
I also looked at white giving up the rook to trap my queen,
Qxb2 0-0 Qxa1 etc... This is what looked dangerous to me so I thought i would go with the safer route.
I put this position into Fritz 8 before I posted on here. It liked Qxb2 Nbd2 Nh6 etc... I looked at Qxb2 Nbd2 because it was pretty aggressive but then I though white has some neat ideas and when I tried them on the computer they weren't as dangerous as I thought but you could still go astray though.
But as you know computers love grabbing material and sometimes positonal considerations come first. You need a bit of human intervation when choosing the right path.
Originally posted by RahimKAlternative way of thinking:
I played Nh6 in that position. I figured might as well get ready to castle and then grab the pawn after.
I did look at the line:Qxb2 Nbd2 Qc3 Bf2 etc...
I also looked at white giving up the rook to trap my queen,Qxb2 0-0 Qxa1 etc... This is what looked dangerous to me so I thought i would go with the safer route.
I'd play Qb2: in this position. I figured this might not be possible later and then I can still get ready to castle (Nh6) after.
I did look at the line:
1. ...Qb2: 2.Nbd2 Nh6 and I couldn' see what was wrong with it. Then I thought 2. ...Qc3 might be even better but I'll only look into it after 2,Nbd2 because the other line looks fine and I don't need to waste time on my clock.
Does my opponent have anything else?
I also looked at my opponent giving up the rook to trap my queen.
1. ...Qb2: 2.0-0 Nh6 and I couldn't see what was wrong with it. Then I thought 2. ...Qa1: might be even better but I'll only look into it after 2.0-0 because the other line looks fine and I don't need to waste time on my clock.
I'm as curious about your way of thinking as you are about ours. What exactly did you fear after 1. ...Qb2: 2.0-0 Qa1:?
a) I might get checkmated, because my opponents pieces are attacking my king.
b) I might lose the right to castle being up a lot of material.
c) I might exchange my queen for a rook, a bishop/knight and a pawn having castled.
d) I might win two rooks and a pawn for my quuen.
e) I calculated a specific line. (please share)
What exactly did you fear after 1. ...Qb2: 2.Nbd2 Nh6? Oh, wait, you only thought of 1. ...Nh6(the human move?), but not abut 2. ...Nh6(the engine move?). Sorry. Let me rephrase: What exactly did you fear after 1. Qb2: 2.Nbd2 Qc3 3. Bf2?
That being said, sorry about the tone and my bad English. Just like in the thread involving 1.Ng4 or 1. Bd2 it seems our thought process is different. I'm not critizising your chess and 1. ...Nh6 looks fine as well.
One more question:
Is this a Caro-Kann game?
Originally posted by RahimKI never even considerd taking on a1 since the question is about weather or not you can take the pawn or not. After Qxb2, 0-0 there is no tactics or positional compensations what I can see. To me it looks like Bxf3 as, I said in me post, is the right move. It would be interesting to know why Qxb2 is better. Maybe someone better can tell me why.
Qxb2 0-0 Qxa1 etc... This is what looked dangerous to me so I thought i would go with the safer route.
Originally posted by sorrymateAt first glace this looks good but after 1. ...Qb2: (different move order, but stays on topic of the thread😉) 2.Nbd2 Qc3 3.Bf2 Bf3: 4.Bf3: Nd4: white has 5.Qa4+ Nc6 6.Rb1
First I considerd taking the pawn but Bxf3 seems to win d4 aswell. So my line goes like this: 1... Bxf3 2.Bxf3 Qxb2 3.Nd2 Qc3 4.Bf2 Nxd4 Maybe there is a smart move somewhere but for me it doesn't seem so. This is pretty simple so don't accuse me for using a computer.[/b]
We might need a computer in this position but I think that white has compensation in this line. What do you think? I'd say black does not need to play this line and is fine otherwise.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtBeing a rookie I couldn't see why White would want to consider anything other than taking the pawn!
Well I did give it to a chess program (Crafty 20.14) and it goes for 9. ... Qxb2 10. Nbd2 Qc3 11. Bf2 Bxf3 12. Bxf3 Nxd4 13. Qa4+ Nc6 14. Rb1 g5 etc. at 15 ply (409 seconds, 561 knodes/sec). At 14 ply it had 10. ... Nh6 as cmsMaster suggested. I think in practical terms (ie in otb play conditions) there's enough wrong with white's position (the vulnerability of the d pawn) for black to get away with grabbing the pawn.
I gave it to my engine (Rival) and he was dead set on playing Qxb2, then at ply eight he got very excited by Bxf3 reckoning on being ahead by two pawns via the line 9... Bxf3 Bxf3 10. Qxb2 Nd2 11. Nxd4 Qa4+ 12. Nc6 O-O 13. O-O-O Rfc1
First off, I like the Nh6 move a lot. However, taking the b-pawn to me seems to be long term compensation for your (small risk). i.e. Qxb2, Nbd2, Qa3 ( was trying to figure out why all of you went for Qc3 instead of Qa3 as the pin seems temporary and moving the bishop may be better on f2 then on e3. That said, it does appear that the time gained by forcing Bf2 (or Qb3) is advantageous.
Hence
Qxb2, Nbd2, Qc3, Bf2, Nh6, 0-0, 0-0 and black can hang onto his extra pawn with good endgame chances (and he has some threats against d4 too).
on the topic of 1...Qxb2 2.O-O
1...Qxb2 2.O-O Qxa1 3.Qb3 (threatening Qxb7 which pretty nasty) Rb8 4.Nc3 Qxf1 5.Kxf1 would make me pretty nervous as black considering that my kingside is completely undeveloped and my king uncastled.
however 1...Qxb2 2.O-O Bxf3! 3.Bxf3 Qxa1 4.Qb3 Nxd4 5.Qa4+ (Qxb7 Rd8) b5 6.Bxd4 bxa4 7.Bxa1 e6 leaves black up an exchange (discounting the weak pawn on a4 as its half dead already)
Here is the game against a friend on this site.
I will answer your questions after.
Rahim K
Game 2490782
Originally posted by jfkjmhOk, I can calculate easy that there are no tactics or compensation when taking the first pawn. Qa4 was not a move that I would have considerd. Probably because I don't have enough experience and often only calculate emidate tactics where there is a win of material in foreseable time. I guess what you mean is simply that Qa4 together with Rb1 will put some pressure on blacks kingside pawns and there is uncertanty if it is possible to defend in the long run? Do you know any resources to look at where such positional decisions as this was made, to learn from?
At first glace this looks good but after 1. ...Qb2: (different move order, but stays on topic of the thread😉) 2.Nbd2 Qc3 3.Bf2 Bf3: 4.Bf3: Nd4: white has 5.Qa4+ Nc6 6.Rb1
We might need a computer in this position but I think that white has compensation in this line. What do you think? I'd say black does not need to play this line and is fine otherwise.
Okay here is what I saw and some comments. Sorrymate I entered your line also. The d5 pawn has to be defended so that line isn't great.
I saw the Qxa1 Qb3 line but I did not see Na5. I saw Nh6 after that and it just looked to messy.
[Event "Challenge"]
[Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
[Date "2006.09.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "mischas"]
[Black "RahimK"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B21"]
[Annotator "Khataw,Rahim"]
[PlyCount "20"]
[EventDate "2006.??.??"]
1. e4 c5 2. f4 Nc6 3. Nf3 g6 4. c3 d5 5. e5 Bg7 6. d4 cxd4 7. cxd4 Bg4 8. Be2
Qb6 9. Be3 Nh6 (9... Bxf3 10. Bxf3 Qxb2 11. Nd2 Qc3 12. Kf2 {
d5 pawn has to be protected for Black.}) (9... Qxb2 10. O-O (10. Nbd2 Nh6 11.
Nb3 Bf5 12. Nh4 Be4 13. Qc1 Qxc1+ 14. Rxc1 O-O 15. Nc5 Nb4 {
This line looks equal. -0.21}) 10... Qxa1 {Not the best move for white.} 11.
Qb3 {This is the line I didn't like for black but I did not see Na5.} (11. Qd2
Nh6 12. Nc3 Qxf1+ 13. Kxf1 e6 14. Nb5 O-O 15. h3 Bxf3 16. Bxf3 Nf5 17. g4 Nxe3+
18. Qxe3 Rfd8) 11... Na5 (11... Rc8 12. Nbd2 {=}) (11... Nh6 12. Nc3 Qxf1+ 13.
Kxf1 Rb8 14. Nxd5) 12. Qa4+ Kf8 13. Qxa5 Qb2 14. Nbd2 Rc8 15. Qxd5 {Messy.})
10. O-O Nf5 0-1
Originally posted by RahimKi definetly prefer white after 9...Qxb2 10.O-O Qxa1? 11.Qb3 Na5 12.Kf8 Qxa5 13.Qb2 Nbd2 14.Rc8? Qxd5 15.Nh6 Bb5 (your "messy" line plus 15.Nh6)
Okay here is what I saw and some comments. Sorrymate I entered your line also. The d5 pawn has to be defended so that line isn't great.
I saw the Qxa1 Qb3 line but I did not see Na5. I saw Nh6 after that and it just looked to messy.
[Event "Challenge"]
[Site "http://www.redhotpawn.com"]
[Date "2006.09.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "mischas"]
[Black "Rahi ...[text shortened]... . Qa4+ Kf8 13. Qxa5 Qb2 14. Nbd2 Rc8 15. Qxd5 {Messy.})
10. O-O Nf5 0-1