Galaxy Riddle

Originally posted by tomtom232
If we are using the bible god does not give an exact time the universe was created in or exactly how the creation of the universe would appear to man and how long it would seem to us.

Which is why I specifically said it is only a problem for young earth creationists.

Originally posted by tomtom232
What does it mean to say the universe is infinite or finite?

I think it is clear in my usage that I mean infinite in extent and not bounded. The reals in the interval (0,1) are bounded even though they are infinite in number. The Integers are infinite and unbounded.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yet you seem to be able to talk about where it is, even without there being a 'there'. I however say that it is not coherent to talk of 'beyond' the edges if such edges exist, just as it is incoherent to talk of 'farther South of the South Pole'.

I understand how words may be inadequate for explaining something that isn't anything, so let's try it this way. If you book a flight to somewhere that doesn't exist, how long would it take you to get there? In other words, is it physically possible to arrive at a destination, or even begin traveling there, if no such destination exists?

At one time the galaxy we live in was thought to be the universe, until we discovered other galaxies. If we never discovered those other galaxies, but were somehow able to leave this galaxy, it would mean something has to exist outside of our galaxy whether we can see it or not. But if we were unable to leave this galaxy, as though there were some invisible barrier holding us back, we could then conclude nothing exists outside of our galaxy.

So not only can you not arrive at a destination that doesn't exist, you can also not travel through a medium that doesn't exist. Space can be considered a medium between two points. If only one of those points exists, then there can be no space to act as a medium.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, that is not the problem. The problem is when you say that the light we see today, that appears to come from stars, was created prior to the stars. I don't even have a problem with that, so long as you concede that the implication is that the stars we see with such light, are fake ie never existed.
Young Earth creationists are faced with the problem t ...[text shortened]... way, or the young earth creationists are wrong, or God created a fake history of the universe.

I don't know what you mean by light from stars being 'fake'. Or were you talking about fake stars? Either way it doesn't make much sense. And I don't see how bringing religion into this is able to shore up your argument or discredit mine. I didn't say the first photons came from stars, nor was I implying light coming from fake stars. I think you're mixing other peoples messages in with mine.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Which is why I specifically said it is only a problem for young earth creationists.

It's also a problem for anyone who recognizes that the universe we see today isn't necessarily the exact same universe 'seen' in the distant past, when the universe was still forming. What's the point of recognizing how relative sizes and distances are relevant, if we ignore how different the universe looks today compared to the distant past? This would only make sense if you believed in an eternal and static universe, which btw some people still believe.

When the big bang theory was first postulated, guess who were the first to resist it? I'll give you hint, it was not the young earth creationists.

Originally posted by lemon lime
I don't know what you mean by light from stars being 'fake'. Or were you talking about fake stars? Either way it doesn't make much sense. And I don't see how bringing religion into this is able to shore up your argument or discredit mine. I didn't say the first photons came from stars, nor was I implying light coming from fake stars. I think you're mixing other peoples messages in with mine.

I have in no way attributed what I said about young earth creationists to you. You responded to comments made regarding starlight earlier in the thread:

I went back to where this thread started, and it seems some people have a problem believing light could have appeared before there were galaxies.

and I was explaining my earlier arguments regarding starlight.

I have no problem with light existing before galaxies. In fact there seems little doubt that this is the case and it is known as the cosmic background radiation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation

My argument appears on page 1 of this thread and is as follows:
There are only three possibilities with regards to the speed of light:
1. Either young earth creationists are wrong about the age of the universe and it is billions of years old.
2. Astronomers are totally and utterly incorrect about the distances involved, sizes involved and if they are wrong about those they are wrong about just about everything.
3. Most stars that we think we see are actually illusions of an imaginary past that never existed.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have in no way attributed what I said about young earth creationists to you. You responded to comments made regarding starlight earlier in the thread:

I went back to where this thread started, and it seems some people have a problem believing light could have appeared before there were galaxies.

and I was explaining my earlier arguments ...[text shortened]... Most stars that we think we see are actually illusions of an imaginary past that never existed.

Okay, I went back to page one to look at what you were saying in that context. Are you assuming light travels forever in a straight line? I know you'll say that's not right, but frankly I don't have much more to go on. I'm not sure if you were intentionally concocting false and ridiculous scenarios to make creationists look foolish, or were talking about something you think is real. You were obviously directing those comments to young earth creationists, or at least one in particular, but here you start off telling me "I have in no way attributed what I said about young earth creationists to you."

I frankly don't care one way or the other how you feel about young earth creationists, because it has nothing to do with anything we've been talking about. I would appreciate it though if you would stop mixing other peoples messages in with mine, as though I'm somehow all of those other people.

Originally posted by twhitehead
3. Most stars that we think we see are actually illusions of an imaginary past that never existed.

I'm hoping that's not the sort of strawman BS you'll be shoveling my way.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Which is why I specifically said it is only a problem for young earth creationists.

So was I.

Originally posted by tomtom232
So was I.

I don't see why you are stuck on the idea that universe came from nothing. That is not even close to the truth. There was stuff around before our universe began and the latest theories say our universe is what comes out of a black hole, in other words, a white hole. There is more and more evidence of this, new mathematical work saying the inside of a black hole does not bear down to infinite density but reaches a certain small size and then explodes into being another universe, ad infinitum. Creationists should love that one, there being a possible infinite number of universes and our universe has life because it is in fact fine tuned for life. Other universes may have the speed of light at one mile per hour because the laws of physics are totally weird there and matter can't even form, much less life. And other universes very close to ours, physics wise. That is the multiverse theory.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I don't see why you are stuck on the idea that universe came from nothing. That is not even close to the truth. There was stuff around before our universe began and the latest theories say our universe is what comes out of a black hole, in other words, a white hole. There is more and more evidence of this, new mathematical work saying the inside of a black ...[text shortened]... ess life. And other universes very close to ours, physics wise. That is the multiverse theory.

Is that the one where Jet Lee kills off all the other Jet Lees and has one more to go but doesn't kill him and is caught and sent to the penal colony universe and has to fight everyone but that's okay with him because he likes fighting everyone and the other Jet Lee is sent to some other much nicer universe that looks like a left wing loonies dreamscape?

Originally posted by sonhouse
I don't see why you are stuck on the idea that universe came from nothing. That is not even close to the truth. There was stuff around before our universe began and the latest theories say our universe is what comes out of a black hole, in other words, a white hole. There is more and more evidence of this, new mathematical work saying the inside of a black ...[text shortened]... ess life. And other universes very close to ours, physics wise. That is the multiverse theory.

We young earth creationists don't believe in other universes.

The Instructor

Originally posted by lemon lime
I frankly don't care one way or the other how you feel about young earth creationists, because it has nothing to do with anything we've been talking about. I would appreciate it though if you would stop mixing other peoples messages in with mine, as though I'm somehow all of those other people.

I think you are misunderstanding me.
1. You responded to comments made earlier in the thread about light.
2. I assumed you were responding to comments made by me.
3. I gave an explanation for those comments.
4. You seem to think that is criticism of something you said.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I think you are misunderstanding me.
1. You responded to comments made earlier in the thread about light.
2. I assumed you were responding to comments made by me.
3. I gave an explanation for those comments.
4. You seem to think that is criticism of something you said.

Yes, I responded to comments about light. I don't recall if it was specifically you making those comments. I went back to look at the first two pages of this thread and saw comments about light. I was simply pointing out how light could have existed before there were stars that gave off light. You showed me a message where you were ridiculing young earth creationists by suggesting they are talking about fake light coming from an imaginary past. I may have first read that without realising it was a strawman argument, and that you didn't actually believe it. I may have misunderstood that message the first time I saw it, but I don't misunderstand it now.

Originally posted by lemon lime
Yes, I responded to comments about light. I don't recall if it was specifically you making those comments. I went back to look at the first two pages of this thread and saw comments about light. I was simply pointing out how light could have existed before there were stars that gave off light. You showed me a message where you were ridiculing young earth ...[text shortened]... ay have misunderstood that message the first time I saw it, but I don't misunderstand it now.

One problem with the young Earthers is the idea there might be intelligent life around planets in all the galaxies we can see in telescopes. If some insane god wanted to create a universe where it fools us by creating fake light, some other astronomer on a galaxy a billion light years away will see something different and would be able to make a guess about the insane god's design.

I think it would be impossible to create fake light that could fool ALL the people ALL the time, to paraphrase Lincoln. If we were the only intelligence in the universe, such an insane god might be able to pull it off without our being the wiser, but to fool an entire universe filled with intelligences? Not likely.

It seems to me not to be worth the effort to fool anyone. The only ones fooled are the incredibly deluded individuals who think they are so special that a god would go to such incredible lengths to make it seem the universe is 14 billion years old and even more billions of light years across but in reality making the whole universe a few thousand years old and causing fake light.

That is to my mind an indication of the arrogance of the young earthers, thinking a god would treat humans with such deference to totally fool just us.

Massive, world shaking arrogance.