Originally posted by DasaSo prove it. Just statements by your precious Veda's won't hack it. Give us an experiment we can independently verify, then maybe we will believe you. Till then, you are just spouting circular arguments. You do know what a circular argument is, don't you?
Are you laughing or crying?
I have just smashed your fundamental principle of physics.
Light is energy.
Thought forms are in reality energy.
Thought forms have been going faster than light for eternity.
So your fundamental is not so fundamental.
Dumb science.
Originally posted by twhiteheadI used ~= to mean approximate. The speed of light is ~=1 nanosecond per foot, close enough that 60 nanosecond difference would be small. It shows the main idea.
Surely that 454 miles is only correct to 3 decimal places? (or less, if you just converted it from kilometres).
One thing I wonder. There was some talk on the physic forum that maybe neutrino's are avoiding the curvature of space maybe by traversing some other dimension between A and B.
If so I wonder if that difference could be used to directly calculate the curvature of space in our neck of the woods.
The idea there would be if we did that same experiment say, 2 light years from Earth, the curvature of space would be less and therefore the difference in the travel time would also be less.
Also there could be a difference seen by the experiment being done when the apparatus was facing the sun, say at noon, V when the same experiment was done at midnight, facing away from the sun. There might be a small change in the travel times.
Just my half baked ideas here.
Originally posted by sonhouseOK, I checked it and you are right, the exact distance is not that important.
I used ~= to mean approximate. The speed of light is ~=1 nanosecond per foot, close enough that 60 nanosecond difference would be small. It shows the main idea.
One thing I wonder. There was some talk on the physic forum that maybe neutrino's are avoiding the curvature of space maybe by traversing some other dimension between A and B.
The question then would be why neutrinos would do that but photons do not.
I am also curious as to why light slows down when in any medium other than empty space, but neutrinos apparently do not.
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Originally posted by sonhouseyeah sorry I meant to say 0.0025% over c but 1.0025%c would have been better.
Wouldn't it be 1.0025 c if it is supposed to be going faster that c?
Like they said though, it is probably some systemic error and in a couple of months there will be a correction paper, oops it was really 0.0025% UNDER c.
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Originally posted by amolv06no they arrived 60 nanoseconds ahead of when they are supposed to. (+/- 10 nano seconds)
From what I read, the neutrinos traveled over 700 km in 60 nanoseconds with an error of 10 nanoseconds. If we assume the largest error, that's over 700 km in 70 nanoseconds, or over 10 billion meters per second. This is over 30 times the speed of light.
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Originally posted by sonhouseahh but you missed the magic % sign.
This is the actual text:
"CERN says a neutrino beam fired from a particle accelerator near Geneva to a lab 454 miles (730 kilometres) away in Italy travelled 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light. Scientists calculated the margin of error at just 10 nanoseconds, making the difference statistically significant. But given the enormous implications ...[text shortened]... r said.
That would put the photon about 60 feet behind the neutrino when it hit the target.
1.0025% c is equal to 1.000025 times c.
% sign means I multiplied by 100 :-)
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In metric [ I know you Americans love to do science in imperial :-) ]
(((60 * (10^(-9))) / (730 000 / 299 792 458)) * 299 792 458) * (730 000 / 299 792 458) = 17.9875475
The Neutrinos are supposed to be about 18 +/- 3 meters ahead of where they are supposed to be.
Which is about 59 +/- 10 feet.
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1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadNeutrinos only interact via gravity and the weak force.
OK, I checked it and you are right, the exact distance is not that important.
[b]One thing I wonder. There was some talk on the physic forum that maybe neutrino's are avoiding the curvature of space maybe by traversing some other dimension between A and B.
The question then would be why neutrinos would do that but photons do not.
I am also cur ...[text shortened]... hy light slows down when in any medium other than empty space, but neutrinos apparently do not.[/b]
They interact so weakly with other matter that it would take 9 light years worth of lead shielding to stop half the neutrinos emitted from the sun. [Assuming it was acting like lead and not a hyper massive black hole ;-) ]
So from the neutrinos perspective the mater it is wizzing through is pretty much not there.
However photons interact via gravity and the electromagnetic force.
Pretty much all matter will interact via the electromagnetic force and those charged electrons and protons certainly do. and strongly.
Thus photons have to weave there way through lots of obstacles that neutrinos don't.
Originally posted by sonhouseThank you for that correction.
This is the actual text:
Notice it said 60 nanoseconds FASTER than the speed of light. In other words if there had been a photon sent off at exactly the same time as the neutrino, the neutrino would have beaten the photon by 60 nanoseconds. This article in no way said anything about the neutrino covering the 700 odd Km in 60 nanoseconds.
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Originally posted by amolv06It was a typical piece of journalism that tries to make as much as possible about
Thank you for that correction.
everything and is vague and confusing about the details.
Easy mistake to make given the circs.
I caught the story on the BBC which made that part clearer.
Originally posted by twhiteheadFor sure if that is the explanation, neutrinos somehow involved with another dimension, that is THE question. I was merely pointing out if that was the case there might be a useful measurement of the curvature of space, presumably if you were in a totally flat space which we aren't and never will be, but if, then the neutrino and photon would arrive on target at exactly the same time and therefore the difference in arrival time would give a metric on the curvature of space or some approximation of the curvature of space.
OK, I checked it and you are right, the exact distance is not that important.
[b]One thing I wonder. There was some talk on the physic forum that maybe neutrino's are avoiding the curvature of space maybe by traversing some other dimension between A and B.
The question then would be why neutrinos would do that but photons do not.
I am also cur ...[text shortened]... hy light slows down when in any medium other than empty space, but neutrinos apparently do not.[/b]
Don't know how you would prove that conjecture however.
Originally posted by uzlessI would love this to be verified, because it might potentially open up more possibilities for eventual interstellar travel. It would make the universe more "Star Trek-like" than previously thought.
A fundamental pillar of physics – that nothing can go faster than the speed of light – appears to be smashed by an oddball subatomic particle that has apparently made a giant end run around Albert Einstein’s theories.
Scientists at the world’s largest physics lab said Thursday they have clocked neutrinos travelling faster than light. That’s something that ...[text shortened]... il.com/news/technology/science/scientists-in-shock-after-breaking-speed-of-light/article2176328/
However, I remember other times when objects appeared to be traveling faster than light, and it all came to naught.
Originally posted by sonhouseThere is the Riemannian metric of relativity theory, but I'm not intimately acquainted with it.
For sure if that is the explanation, neutrinos somehow involved with another dimension, that is THE question. I was merely pointing out if that was the case there might be a useful measurement of the curvature of space, presumably if you were in a totally flat space which we aren't and never will be, but if, then the neutrino and photon would arrive on targ ...[text shortened]... ximation of the curvature of space.
Don't know how you would prove that conjecture however.
Originally posted by SoothfastSome kind of extra dimensionality to neutrino's might explain their tiny mass, like the theories that explains the weakness of gravity as traversing several extra dimensions and it gets diluted strength wise.
There is the Riemannian metric of relativity theory, but I'm not intimately acquainted with it.
I wonder if something like that might be happening to neutrino's, if their existence crosses dimensions, maybe they are the other side of another universe, a particle that has a lot of mass in another parallel universe but some of that mass 'leaks' to ours and manifests itself as what we know as neutrino's.
Like dark matter, could be matter leaking into our universe from a parallel universe, where only a small portion of itself is actually here and the rest of the mass is in the other universe.
Some more half baked Sonhousisms🙂