What is Intelligent Design all about ?

Originally posted by twhitehead
But why does believing that lead to claims about irreducible complexity? It simply doesn't follow that if there is a higher power guiding evolution then it is impossible for the eye to have evolved from something simpler via a series of steps.

The fact that volcanoes do not produce cars is the reason why evolution does not work. You can make the leap of faith that on its own things will evolve the way they have, but that is taking a leap of faith.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
So are you saying that 'selection' doesn't always imply 'decision'?!

Actually the opposite.

Where there is selection there is decision.

Where there is decision there is something deciding.

The Veda maintains that this deciding is coming under the jurisdiction of higher intelligent authority.

This higher authority sets things in motion and once set in motion it appears that they are governing themselves.

Just like the general manager of General Motors sets in motion the production of the VN Commodore and after that the general manager goes on holidays and leaves the whole system running itself.....................but people are being hired, people are being fired, the cars are being created and it appears that the manager does not exist.

God does not labour and everything in this creation is happening under his direction as these two verses indicate.

Bhagavad Gita Cht7 Text 7

mattah parataram nanyat
kincid asti dhananjaya
mayi sarvam idam protam
sutre mani-gana iva

SYNONYMS
mattah--beyond Myself; para-taram--superior; na--not; anyat kincit--anything else; asti--there is; dhananjaya--O conqueror of wealth; mayi--in Me; sarvam--all that be; idam--which we see; protam--strung; sutre--on a thread; mani-ganah--pearls; iva--likened.

TRANSLATION
O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.

Also

etad-yonini bhutani
sarvanity upadharaya
aham krtsnasya jagatah
prabhavah pralayas tatha

SYNONYMS
etat--these two natures; yonini--source of birth; bhutani--everything created; sarvani--all; iti--thus; upadharaya--know; aham--I; krtsnasya--all-inclusive; jagatah--of the world; prabhavah--source of manifestation; pralayah--annihilation; tatha--as well as.

TRANSLATION
Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both its origin and dissolution.

*The only business of God is to enjoy and he is the Supreme enjoyer. (he is permanently on holidays) and returning back home back to Godhead allows us to stay on holidays with him eternally.

There is more going on in the spiritual world than a trillion to the power of trillion earth planets.

Originally posted by Dasa

TRANSLATION
O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.

some pearls are loose. and they all lose their luster after being weathered by rationality.

Originally posted by Eladar
The fact that volcanoes do not produce cars is the reason why evolution does not work. You can make the leap of faith that on its own things will evolve the way they have, but that is taking a leap of faith.

No leap of faith is required. I understand how it works. You clearly don't (hence the volcano analogy.)
If you want to understand it, there are plenty of good books on the subject, and people in this forum will readily explain it to you.
But your attitude of thinking you know better when you clearly don't, suggests you don't want to understand it for religious reasons.

Originally posted by Dasa
Actually the opposite.

Where there is selection there is decision.

Where there is decision there is something deciding.

The Veda maintains that this deciding is coming under the jurisdiction of higher intelligent authority.

This higher authority sets things in motion and once set in motion it appears that they are governing themselves.

Just like ...[text shortened]... is more going on in the spiritual world than a trillion to the power of trillion earth planets.

But i just gave you an example -

When the wind blows resulting in leaves being blown from the tree, we can can say those leaves have been 'selected'. Does the winds 'selection' of those leaves imply decision?

Originally posted by Eladar
The fact that volcanoes do not produce cars is the reason why evolution does not work. You can make the leap of faith that on its own things will evolve the way they have, but that is taking a leap of faith.

The fact that volcanoes do not produce cars is the reason why evolution does not work.

Take the stage my good man and explain to us why and how evolution can't work.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
But i just gave you an example -

When the wind blows resulting in leaves being blown from the tree, we can can say those leaves have been 'selected'. Does the winds 'selection' of those leaves imply decision?

The selection is being made through the principles of physics and this allows the older leaves to fall before the new ones.

The principle of physics are being maintained and supported by higher authority.

The higher authority has already made decisions long before physics make old leaves fall first before the new ones.

The world we live in is self functioning only because it has been set up that way from the very beginning by higher authority.

Laws don't make derisions but follow pre-set arrangements to cover every circumstance.

Like this......

Authority has arranged for laws to function as designed.

Those laws take care of every situation that comes along......wind blows or it doesn't and there is no need for authority to become involved once those laws are working..

But those laws are being maintained at every moment by higher authority.

If the laws are not maintained the laws would be controlled by random chance resulting in the laws being there sometimes and not being there other times.

Actually they would not be there at all.

Originally posted by Dasa
The selection is being made through the principles of physics and this allows the older leaves to fall before the new ones.

The principle of physics are being maintained and supported by higher authority.

The higher authority has already made decisions long before physics make old leaves fall first before the new ones.

The world we live in is self func ...[text shortened]... g there sometimes and not being there other times.

Actually they would not be there at all.

The selection is being made through the principles of physics and this allows the older leaves to fall before the new ones.

Exactly!!!!

The laws of physics dictate which leaves will fall to the ground and those that don't. There is no 'conscious decision' by the wind.

The same applies with natural selection. The 'selection' here again is dictated by the laws of physics as in the example above, no 'conscious decision' is made.

Now you can say the laws of physics were put in place by God, or a higher authority, or a designer or aliens or whoever. The fact is that selection does not imply 'conscious decision', the selection is governed by the laws of nature.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]The selection is being made through the principles of physics and this allows the older leaves to fall before the new ones.

Exactly!!!!

The laws of physics dictate which leaves will fall to the ground and those that don't. There is no 'conscious decision' by the wind.

The same applies with natural selection. The 'selection' here again is ...[text shortened]... n does not imply 'conscious decision', the selection is governed by the laws of nature.[/b]

The laws of physics are created and maintained by conscious intelligence and that conscious intelligence is always connected and involved with those laws......although at the level of leaves falling from trees the conscious involvement allows the laws to act without interference.

So summarizing the leaves falling are under control of laws but those laws are under the supervision of conscious intelligence.

So selection is still connected to conscious decision because the laws are always controlled by conscious intelligence.

Back to the car factory and the manager has gone on holidays and he has disappeared but his conscious decisions and sections are still being honoured and followed......and without his conscious decisions in the first place and his constant support from a distance the process would falter.

Now this conscious intelligence has created laws and systems to function intelligently and purposefully and with natural selection it is claimed that their is no purposeful intelligent direction but only random chance selection.

Random chance selection without purposeful intelligent selection would not give us the millions of wonderful species.

Originally posted by Dasa
Random chance selection without purposeful intelligent selection would not give us the millions of wonderful species.

But surely the laws of probability too are created and maintained by conscious intelligence?
Is the selection of leaves mentioned earlier, random chance selection, or purposeful intelligent selection?

Originally posted by twhitehead
But surely the laws of probability too are created and maintained by conscious intelligence?
Is the selection of leaves mentioned earlier, random chance selection, or purposeful intelligent selection?

Its purposeful intelligent selection for the laws are purposely and intelligently created to function as they do.

The laws of physics have been created by an intelligent purposeful supreme being.

The laws are then obeying the directions of that intelligent purposeful supreme being.

The Supreme Being though is not personally pulling the strings but they are functioning according to his purposeful intelligent intentfull direction.

There is nothing in existence that is happening through random chance but behind everything that appears to be random chance there are laws and these laws are controlled by higher authorities.

The laws are not independent of the higher authority.......but it appears so.

Originally posted by Dasa
Actually the opposite.

Where there is selection there is decision.

Where there is decision there is something deciding.

The Veda maintains that this deciding is coming under the jurisdiction of higher intelligent authority.

This higher authority sets things in motion and once set in motion it appears that they are governing themselves.

Just like ...[text shortened]... is more going on in the spiritual world than a trillion to the power of trillion earth planets.

This higher authority sets things in motion and once set in motion it appears that they are governing themselves.

If it only appears that way, the higher authority is pretty busy all the time. Even I can set an alarm clock and forget about it.

Originally posted by JS357

This higher authority sets things in motion and once set in motion it appears that they are governing themselves.

If it only appears that way, the higher authority is pretty busy all the time. Even I can set an alarm clock and forget about it.

sometimes, the water just carves its course through the hills and valleys and there is no designer behind the scenes.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
sometimes, the water just carves its course through the hills and valleys and there is no designer behind the scenes.

It can do this because water exists, land exists and gravity carving it exists.

And they surly didn't come from an explosion.

Originally posted by Dasa
It can do this because water exists, land exists and gravity carving it exists.

And they surly didn't come from an explosion.

who says they came from an explosion?