09 Dec 04
1 edit
Originally posted by conticchioYou're getting your knickers in a twist over nothing.
How can u and who can express 99% or 80% or 50%? Who decided the % of guilty? U wrote "Where guilt exists, it will not be at all difficult to prove."... are u sure? Are u really sure? U spoke about 99.99% that is not 100%!! For u is re ...[text shortened]... be accused will understand what this policy means in real.
Byeeee
You can take any of my games, if I match up even 50% to an engine in any game, I would be pretty shocked, most likely it would be 20%-30%. What we are talking about is >90% match ups, game after game. The statistical improbability of this is less than one grain of sand in the entire Sahara desert.
Now maybe if the punishment for cheating is death by firing squad, or by lethal injection, a grain of sand may be significant. But in the interests of fairness on a chess site, it most certainly is not.
In the unlikely event that any person is unjustly punished for inadvertantly matching a computer move game after game, they will at least have a promising career ahead them either on the GM circuit, in a circus freak show, or as the subject of a very fascinating scientific thesis.
09 Dec 04
1 edit
I would suggest, that, with the sophistication of modern technology the distinction between a chess playing program [ For example Fritz ] and a database [ For example Chessbase] is becoming slimmer with each passing day, even if we do trust the player to have the engine turned off Using Chessbase will give that player a much greater advantage than books were ever intended to do in traditional correspondence chess, so I would like to advocate including the use of such super programs as cheating along with the more obvious, Fritz CM etc etc, I know those using will hide behind the old slogan. "The laws of CC allow . . . " but those rules were written when a computer was about as powerful as a digital watch, a modern database program DOES give a user an unfair advantage over a non user just as chess playing software can - let us outlaw both and make RHP a site for " Pure Chess"
09 Dec 04
Originally posted by conticchioIt amazes me when anybody opposes the fight on cheaters within the site. Especially a strong player like yourself who should know about the very slim possibilities that man and machine will consistently, game after game, pick the very same moves. It makes me wonder. I had a look at one of your games with shredder 8 and this is the result...
This committee is one of the most stupid thing i've ever heard in this site. How can someone be sure of cheating of someone else?
<not analysed>
1.e2-e4 c7-c5 2.Ng1–f3 e7-e6 3.d2-d4 c5xd4 4.Nf3xd4 Nb8-c6 5.Nb1–c3 d7-d6 6.Bf1–c4 Bf8-e7 7.0–0 Ng8-f6 8.Bc1–e3 0–0 9.Bc4-b3 Nc6-a5 10.f2-f4 Na5xb3 11.c2xb3 h7-h5 12.Qd1–d3 Nf6-g4 13.Kg1–h1 Bc8-d7
</not analysed>
14.Be3-g1 [Shredder 8: 14.Be3-g1 Qd8-a5 15.Nd4-b5 Bd7xb5 16.Nc3xb5 Ng4-f6 17.f4-f5 d6-d5 18.f5xe6 Nf6xe4 -0.26/9 ] 14...a7-a6
15.h2-h3 [Shredder 8: 15.h2-h3 Ng4-h6 16.Ra1–c1 f7-f5 17.e4-e5 d6xe5 18.f4xe5 Nh6-f7 19.Qd3-e2 Qd8-a5 20.Nd4xf5 Qa5xe5 21.Nf5xe7+ Kg8-h8 22.Qe2xe5 -0.14/8 ] 15...Ng4-h6 16.f4-f5 Ra8-c8
17.Bg1–e3 [Shredder 8: 17.Bg1–e3 Kg8-h8 18.Be3xh6 g7xh6 19.Nd4-e2 Qd8-b6 20.f5-f6 Bd7-b5 21.Nc3xb5 Qb6-g1+ 22.Kh1xg1 0.75/9 ] 17...Be7-g5
18.Be3xg5 [Shredder 8: 18.Be3xg5 Qd8xg5 19.Nd4-f3 Qg5-e7 20.Ra1–d1 Rc8-d8 21.Qd3xd6 Qe7xd6 22.Rd1xd6 e6xf5 23.Rf1–d1 Bd7-c8 24.Rd6xd8 f5xe4 0.82/1 ] 18...Qd8xg5
19.Nd4-f3 [Shredder 8: 19.Nd4-f3 Qg5-g3 20.Nc3-e2 Bd7-b5 21.Ne2xg3 Bb5xd3 22.Rf1–d1 Bd3-c2 23.Rd1xd6 e6xf5 24.e4-e5 0.49/9 ] 19...Qg5-e7
20.Ra1–d1 [Shredder 8: 20.Ra1–d1 Rf8-d8 21.Qd3xd6 Qe7xd6 22.Rd1xd6 e6xf5 23.Rf1–d1 f5xe4 24.Nc3xe4 Rc8-c7 0.82/9 ] 20...Rc8-c6
21.Nf3-d4 [Shredder 8: 21.Nf3-d4 Rc6-c8 22.f5-f6 g7xf6 23.Nd4-e2 f6-f5 24.Qd3xd6 Qe7xd6 25.Rd1xd6 Bd7-b5 26.Nc3xb5 a6xb5 27.Rf1xf5 e6xf5 28.Rd6xh6 1.04/10 ] 21...Rc6-c8 22.Kh1–g1 Kg8-h8 23.b3-b4 Qe7-d8 24.Rf1–f2 Qd8-e7 25.Qd3-f3 Qe7-g5
26.f5xe6 [Shredder 8: 26.f5xe6 f7xe6 27.Qf3xf8+ Rc8xf8 28.Rf2xf8+ Kh8-h7 0.57/2 ] 26...f7xe6
27.Qf3xf8+ [Shredder 8: 27.Qf3xf8+ Rc8xf8 28.Rf2xf8+ Kh8-h7 0.57/9 ] 27...Rc8xf8
28.Rf2xf8+ [Shredder 8: 28.Rf2xf8+ Kh8-h7 29.a2-a3 h5-h4 30.Rf8-f2 Qg5-g3 31.Nc3-e2 Qg3-e3 32.Nd4-f3 Bd7-c6 33.Rd1xd6 Kh7-g6 0.57/7 ]
28...Kh8-h7 29.Rf8-b8 Qg5-e3+
30.Kg1–h1 [Shredder 8: 1) 30.Kg1–h2 e6-e5 31.Nd4-f3 Qe3-f4+ 32.Kh2-h1 Bd7xh3 33.Rb8xb7 Qf4-g3 34.Rd1–d2 Bh3xg2+ 35.Rd2xg2 Qg3xf3 36.Rb7xg7+ Kh7-h8 37.Rg7-a7 Qf3-f1+ 38.Kh1–h2 0.12/14 ; Shredder 8: 2) 30.Kg1–h1 e6-e5 31.Nd4-f3 Bd7xh3 32.Rd1–f1 32...Bh3-g4 33.Rb8xb7 Bg4xf3 -0.06/9 ] 30...e6-e5
31.Nd4-f3 [Shredder 8: 31.Nd4-f3 Bd7xh3 32.Rd1–f1 Bh3-g4 33.Rb8xb7 Bg4xf3 -0.06/13 ] 31...Bd7xh3
32.Rd1–d2 Bh3-g4
33.Nc3-d5 [Shredder 8: 33.Nc3-d5 Qe3-a7 34.Rb8-e8 a6-a5 35.Re8-e7 Nh6-g8 36.Re7-c7 a5xb4 37.b2-b3 -0.47/3 ] 33...Qe3-a7
34.Rb8-e8 [Shredder 8: 34.Rb8-e8 a6-a5 35.Re8-e7 Nh6-g8 36.Re7-c7 a5xb4 37.b2-b3 -0.47/1 ] 34...a6-a5
35.Re8-e7 [Shredder 8: 35.Re8-e7 Nh6-g8 36.Re7-c7 a5xb4 37.b2-b3 -0.47/6 ] 35...Nh6-g8
36.Re7-c7 [Shredder 8: 36.Re7-c7 a5xb4 37.b2-b3 Qa7-b8 38.Rd2-c2 Bg4xf3 39.g2xf3 Kh7-h6 40.Nd5xb4 g7-g5 41.Nb4-d5 -0.47/11 ] 36...a5xb4
37.b2-b3 [Shredder 8: 37.b2-b3 Qa7-b8 38.Rd2-c2 b7-b5 39.Nf3-g5+ -1.02/7 ] 37...Qa7-b8
38.Rd2-c2 [Shredder 8: 38.Rd2-c2 b7-b5 39.Nf3-g5+ Kh7-g6 40.Ng5-f7 Bg4-e6 41.Nf7xd6 Be6xd5 42.e4xd5 Qb8-d8 43.Nd6-b7 Qd8xd5 44.Nb7-d6 -1.02/9 ] 38...b7-b5
39.Kh1–g1 [Shredder 8: 1) 39.Nf3-g5+ Kh7-g6 40.Ng5-f7 Bg4-e6 -1.02/7 ; Shredder 8: 2) 39.Kh1–g1 Qb8-a8 40.Nf3-d2 Kh7-g6 41.Nd5xb4 Ng8-f6 42.Nb4-c6 h5-h4 -1.06/12 ] 39...Qb8-d8
40.Rc7-b7 [Shredder 8: 40.Rc7-b7 Ng8-f6 -0.63/4 ] 40...Kh7-h6
41.Rb7xb5 [Shredder 8: 41.Rb7xb5 Ng8-f6 42.Nd5xf6 Qd8xf6 43.Nf3-h2 Qf6-g5 44.Nh2xg4+ h5xg4 45.Rb5xb4 g4-g3 46.Kg1–f1 Qg5-h5 47.Rb4-b7 Kh6-g5 48.Rb7xg7+ Kg5-f4 49.Rc2-c7 Qh5-h1+ 50.Kf1–e2 Qh1xg2+ 51.Ke2-d3 Qg2xe4+ 52.Kd3-d2 Qe4-b1 53.Rc7-c4+ Kf4-f3 54.Rg7-f7+ Kf3-g2 55.Rf7-f2+ -0.33/6 ] 41...Ng8-f6
42.Nd5xf6 [Shredder 8: 42.Nd5xf6 Qd8xf6 43.Nf3-h2 Qf6-g5 44.Nh2xg4+ h5xg4 45.Rb5xb4 g4-g3 46.Kg1–f1 Qg5-h5 47.Rb4-b7 Kh6-g5 48.Rb7xg7+ Kg5-f4 49.Rc2-c7 Qh5-h1+ 50.Kf1–e2 Qh1xg2+ 51.Ke2-d3 Qg2xe4+ 52.Kd3-d2 Qe4-b1 53.Rc7-c4+ Kf4-f3 54.Rg7-f7+ Kf3-g2 55.Rf7-f2+ g3xf2 -0.49/16 ] 42...Qd8xf6
43.Nf3-e1 [Shredder 8: 1) 43.Rb5xb4 Bg4xf3 44.Rc2-f2 Qf6-h4 45.g2xf3 Qh4-g5+ 46.Kg1–f1 Qg5-c1+ 47.Kf1–g2 Qc1–g5+ 48.Kg2-f1 Qg5-c1+ 49.Kf1–g2 Qc1–g5+ 50.Kg2-f1 Qg5-c1+ -0.02/14 ;
Shredder 8: 2) 43.Nf3-e1 Bg4-d1 44.Rc2-f2 Qf6-f4 45.Rf2xf4 Bd1–g4 -0.28/14 ] 43...Qf6-f4
44.Rb5xb4 [Shredder 8: 44.Rb5xb4 d6-d5 45.Rc2-f2 Qf4-e3 46.Ne1–c2 Qe3-c1+ 47.Kg1–h2 d5-d4 48.Rb4-b6+ Kh6-g5 49.a2-a4 d4-d3 50.Nc2-b4 -0.90/11 ] 44...h5-h4
45.Rb4-c4 [Shredder 8: 1) 45.Rc2-f2 Qf4-c1 46.Kg1–f1 h4-h3 47.g2xh3 Bg4xh3+ 48.Kf1–e2 Qc1–a3 49.Rb4-a4 Qa3-b2+ 50.Ke2-f3 Qb2-c3+ 51.Kf3-e2 Qc3-b2+ 52.Ke2-f3 Qb2-c3+ 53.Kf3-e2 Qc3-b2+ 54.Ke2-f3 -0.03/13 ;
Shredder 8: 2) 45.Rb4-c4 Qf4-g3 46.Rc2-c1 -0.97/13 ] 45...Qf4-g3
46.Rc2-c1 [Shredder 8: 46.Rc2-c1 Qg3-e3+ 47.Kg1–h2 Bg4-e2 48.Rc4-c6 Kh6-g5 49.Rc1–c3 Qe3xe4 50.Rc6xd6 Qe4-d4 51.Rd6xd4 Kg5-f5 52.Rd4xh4 -1.01/12 ] 46...Kh6-h5
47.Rc4-c3 [Shredder 8: 47.Rc4-c3 Qg3-f4 48.a2-a4 Qf4xe4 49.Ne1–c2 Qe4-b7 50.Nc2-e3 Bg4-e6 51.Ne3-c4 Be6xc4 52.Rc3xc4 Qb7xb3 -0.52/12 ] ½–½
Now, I'm not accusing you of cheating, as it has been stated numerous times, this tiny chance of perfect matches move for move can happen every once in a blue moon. In one game. I don't have time or motivation to look into more of your games, as the cheat police will be charged with that type of foot work. I just think that anybody who is so vehemently opposed to the fight on engine use, must have something to hide, as a cheat free (or as close as can be achieved) site MUST be the aim for any real chess player. I would be extremely interested to find out who has recommended your two posts as well.
D
09 Dec 04
Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervour, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done, and I am Caesar.
William Shakespeare
09 Dec 04
Originally posted by rapalla7Hey Caesar,move in our game,you roman plumber!
Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervour, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the ...[text shortened]... adly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done, and I am Caesar.
William Shakespeare
09 Dec 04
Originally posted by RagnorakHmmmmm, that is a pretty close game. I bet he would have drawn with fritz.😉
It amazes me when anybody opposes the fight on cheaters within the site. Especially a strong player like yourself who should know about the very slim possibilities that man and machine will consistently, game after game, pick the very same moves. It makes me wonder. I had a look at one of your games with shredder 8 and this is the result...
<not analy ...[text shortened]... r. I would be extremely interested to find out who has recommended your two posts as well.
D
09 Dec 04
Originally posted by RagnorakThis is astounding! Another person whose moves 'just happen to line up'
It amazes me when anybody opposes the fight on cheaters within the site. Especially a strong player like yourself who should know about the very slim possibilities that man and machine will consistently, game after game, pick the very same moves. It makes me wonder. I had a look at one of your games with shredder 8 and this is the result...
<not analy ...[text shortened]... r. I would be extremely interested to find out who has recommended your two posts as well.
D
with an established engine!
This is appalling!
Nemesio
09 Dec 04
Does anyone mind if i add my name to the list :-)
I think im more Qualified than most on that list when it comes to spotting engine use (cheating), why ? because i am one, a cheat that is, ive used engines on RHP for some time now and have alot of experiance at chess analysis with an engine.
Put simply, i fancy a bit of "witch hunting" thrill of the chase and all that, and look at this way, takes a thief to catch a thief, lol.
PS I cant believe how naive some of you people are, what did you really think engine use was restricted to just 1 or 2 people on this site ??, wake up boys and girls your in for the shock of your lives.
Regards FGWE
09 Dec 04
Originally posted by forevergreenwithenvyAnybody can put their name on the list.
Does anyone mind if i add my name to the list :-)
I think im more Qualified than most on that list when it comes to spotting engine use (cheating), why ? because i am one, a cheat that is, ive used engines on RHP for some time now and have alot of experiance at chess analysis with an engine.
Put simply, i fancy a bit of "witch hunting ...[text shortened]... le on this site ??, wake up boys and girls your in for the shock of your lives.
Regards FGWE
The RHP populous then choose who they want on the cheat police.
D
10 Dec 04
Originally posted by conticchioA lot of people have doubts about this, but at least they express them and back them up with reasons. Often they point out things that others hadn't seen and its a pooling of information. Iv learnt so much over the last few weeks and have had to shift my view quite a bit thanks to the intelligent arguements of others. However all (?) strong players agree that you can tell computer player if you look at the right kinds of games and those games match up. The only point of debate seems to the the number of games you need and the % of match up. A few weeks ago id have said I knew the answer to both of those questions, however thanks to No1, im not so sure about the number, but I know there is a number maybe 10 games or 20, either way in the end it can be proven.
How can u and who can express 99% or 80% or 50%? Who decided the % of guilty? U wrote "Where guilt exists, it will not be at all difficult to prove."... are u sure? Are u really sure? U spoke about 99.99% that is not 100%!! For u is reasonable? For me not. None want to encourage cheating. Come on!! But i hope for u that tomorrow someone don't have the ...[text shortened]... when and if (obviously) will be accused will understand what this policy means in real.
Byeeee
If you are just going to blast a lot of yab yab crap save it. Back it up with some sort of chess arguement (the kind that your rating says you should be able to do with ease) and people will listen to you. Everyone is open to new information if you do know something the rest of us dont.
10 Dec 04
Originally posted by GrayeyesofsorrowYou can't even have a set number of games,imo.A player with 1000 games is likely to have more matching games than a player with a mere 100 games.
A lot of people have doubts about this, but at least they express them and back them up with reasons. Often they point out things that others hadn't seen and its a pooling of information. Iv learnt so much over the last few weeks and have had to shift my view quite a bit thanks to the intelligent arguements of others. However all (?) strong play ...[text shortened]... sten to you. Everyone is open to new information if you do know something the rest of us dont.