Originally posted by moonbusI see where you are coming from
No, and that is exactly why bulk wins is an unfair metric. A clan which plays 50 games and wins 49 of them has a season score of 49, whereas a clan which plays 1000 games and wins only 50 of them wins the championship if only bulk wins are counted.
However you could say one clan has been industrious and joined in the community whilst the other one has been a bit lazy and only picking challenges it can win
Originally posted by mghrn55Did he really just attempt to justify and I quote,
Clans dumping challenges and players throwing games when challenge has been decided.
I will step up and say this.
There is really nothing wrong with that !!
This is clan challenge management plain and simple.
And I am sure lots of clans do it.
If anyone thinks this is a reportable transgression, report this to site.
Their answer ?? Stop wast ...[text shortened]... not waste Russ' time on this stuff.
Russ is a website manager.
Not an emotional therapist !!
'Clans dumping challenges and players throwing games when challenge has been decided. I will step up and say this. There is really nothing wrong with that !! This is clan challenge management plain and simple. And I am sure lots of clans do it."
You are not part of the solution you are part of the problem and no lots of clans do not do it and no its not clan management it is sandbagging and abusing the system. Thank you for your frank public confession of manipulating the system and attempt at self justification for sandbagging. As has been stated you do not want a ratings based system because you are exactly the type of players that will be forced to play fair challenges. You are also not interested in reforming the system, you are only interested in opposing measures which would make the system more fair. Thank you for your input.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieResigning games when the clan challenges have been decided.
Did he really just attempt to justify and I quote,
'Clans dumping challenges and players throwing games when challenge has been decided. I will step up and say this. There is really nothing wrong with that !! This is clan challenge management plain and simple. And I am sure lots of clans do it."
You are not part of the solution you are part o ...[text shortened]... nterested in opposing measures which would make the system more fair. Thank you for your input.
I have stated, quite clearly, that adjusting the rating formula (ELO or this site's in-house version) will end the paranoia about sandbagging.
Besides, you should be the last person to carrying the torch on this issue !!
You participated in a scheme where players resigned games before challenges were decided !!
So we don't need your arm flapping hypocrisy !!
As to year end clan challenges ??
So what ??
Why don't you tell the entire clan community that clans should close a challenge on Dec 31st instead of Jan 1st !!
And don't let the door hit you on the way out after you have been laughed out of the room !!
We all know you started collusion challenges in November 2015 that were designed to score points in 2016 !!
We don't need your hypocrisy in this thread !!
Originally posted by mghrn55Do you or do you not support a ratings based system? Out with it!
Resigning games when the clan challenges have been decided.
I have stated, quite clearly, that adjusting the rating formula (ELO or this site's in-house version) will end the paranoia about sandbagging.
Besides, you should be the last person to carrying the torch on this issue !!
You participated in a scheme where players resigned games before challen ...[text shortened]... that were designed to score points in 2016 !!
We don't need your hypocrisy in this thread !!
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many perspectives have been presented and we kept it polite (well done)
the discussion has been excellent, but we're not approaching consensus
it might be time to ask Russ to review the suggestions, determine which ones are feasible, estimate how long they would take to implement, and present them for our vote
please remember, we can only ask for what's possible
all in favor, please weigh in
Originally posted by moonbusWhat about a system where your best 25 results count towards your points.
No, and that is exactly why bulk wins is an unfair metric. A clan which plays 50 games and wins 49 of them has a season score of 49, whereas a clan which plays 1000 games and wins only 50 of them wins the championship if only bulk wins are counted.
You can play however many challenges you want in the year but only your clans best 25 results count.
Yes this will favour the clans with more people as they can mount larger challenges but hey.........shouldn't a large clan win as opposed to a clan of 2 or 3.
Points allocated as per Padgers post.
Should lead to far fewer but larger clans with larger and more exciting challenges.
Common Robbie.......shoot it down as usual
Originally posted by radioactive69My dear sir, you are a chess player, you should be used to having your variations subject to falsification.
What about a system where your best 25 results count towards your points.
You can play however many challenges you want in the year but only your clans best 25 results count.
Yes this will favour the clans with more people as they can mount larger challenges but hey.........shouldn't a large clan win as opposed to a clan of 2 or 3.
Points al ...[text shortened]... er clans with larger and more exciting challenges.
Common Robbie.......shoot it down as usual
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYes I do.
Do you or do you not support a ratings based system? Out with it!
It's a good start and all discussion around this has been productive.
Like any proposal, we need to evaluate risks that come with this proposal.
Or any proposal for that matter.
Russ will do a lot of that I expect.
He is the one holding the cheque book !!
The big question I see here is whether fixing the clan system will be a maintenance item or a project !!
Meaning, will site tinker with the existing product ??
Or will they completely rewrite it ??
I for my part will wait for Russ to come back with that evaluation.
Originally posted by GiannottiI agree with your assessment.
many perspectives have been presented and we kept it polite (well done)
the discussion has been excellent, but we're not approaching consensus
it might be time to ask Russ to review the suggestions, determine which ones are feasible, estimate how long they would take to implement, and present them for our vote
please remember, we can only ask for what's possible
all in favor, please weigh in
I think the ball is in Russ' court.
Any further posts to this thread will be either white noise or "overthinking" the issue.
Next step is to let Russ think this out.
We haven't added anything new to this post for some time.
Here is my hypothetical scenario and I invite questions or criticism of it. Please note that the actual figures are based on rough estimates for I know not what the actual formula is for calculating ratings.
Hypothetical scenario A
Clan A (1400) v Clan B (1450) - Clans have their own individual ratings
1) robbie 1798 v mghrn55 1810 (draw)
2) tomeasyrider 1600 v hetrz van rental 1610 (black win)
3) settl 930 v suzzianne 1000 (white win)
1. no change,
2. tomeasyrider drops 10 points goes down to 1590, hertz van rental gains 10 points rating goes up to 1620
3. settl gains 15 points personal rating goes up to 945 suzzianne drops 15 points, personal rating goes to 985
Clan A gains 5 points (-10 from tomeasyrider and +15 from settl) rating goes to 1405
Clan B drops 5 points (+10 from hertzvanrental and -15 from suzzianne) rating goes to 1445.
A number of things become apparent.
1. It will be in a clan leaders interests to make challenges fair or take calculated risks. Settl gains the most because his challenge had the greatest disparity between himself and his opponent. Suzianne loses the most because the same is true.
2. Draws between similarly rated players will not effect the results meaning that players will be forced to play out the game and not accept easy draws.
3. If suzzianne had won she would have not gained as much as settl because her rating is higher. The greater the difference the less incentive there is, thus there will be no more beating up on lower rated players.
4. The clan whose players make the greatest improvements and whose leader manages the challenges the best will win.
5. There will be no point in throwing games, your clan will lose the points.
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this post is really thought provoking
it's a new idea, and i believe it has merit
each clan has a rating, highest rated clan wins at the end of the year
no incentive for a player to throw games, this would destroy the clan rating
... and it seems fairly easy to implement
there are several considerations, we can start with the most obvious ones
how can this be twisted and manipulated?
is it scalable, does it work equally well for large and small clans?
Originally posted by GiannottiYou need to ask robbie about your first question
this post is really thought provoking
it's a new idea, and i believe it has merit
each clan has a rating, highest rated clan wins at the end of the year
no incentive for a player to throw games, this would destroy the clan rating
... and it seems fairly easy to implement
there are several considerations, we can start with the most obvious on ...[text shortened]... twisted and manipulated?
is it scalable, does it work equally well for large and small clans?
He knows how to manipulate things better than most
He is also knows this system better than anyone else but I do not trust him
Originally posted by GiannottiAnd this would stop collusion?
this post is really thought provoking
it's a new idea, and i believe it has merit
each clan has a rating, highest rated clan wins at the end of the year
no incentive for a player to throw games, this would destroy the clan rating
... and it seems fairly easy to implement
there are several considerations, we can start with the most obvious on ...[text shortened]... twisted and manipulated?
is it scalable, does it work equally well for large and small clans?
Not a chance the team throwing games have no interest in their own clan as proved last year
Two clans did it in 2015 it only stopped after they got suspended
Points removal is the only answer