08 Nov 06
Originally posted by ahosyneyAhosyney, you are an idealist! 🙂 Good. Because it is your responsibility to see that those ideals are realized across the ummah (just as it is for people of other religions, or no religion, in their communities). I do not know how realized they are in your home country, but they have yet to be realized throughout the Islamic world.
No I didn't say that. I assume you will not accept any of what you say because of your idea about GOD.
You said GOD will not accept the people get killed. And that is why you don't think Islam is a message of GOD.
I asked you why GOD created us. And you didn't answer me.
As a muslim we belive GOD created us to worship him. So if we don't GOD has th ...[text shortened]... d "Nesa" means to Women in Arabic.
So can you tell me how Islam subjugate women
To non-Muslims: There is a vibrant feminist movement in Islam, working toward the full realization of the ideals that ahosyney has articulated—women who are Muslim. I recommend to anyone Fatima Mernissi’s book The Veil and the Male Elite. (Actually, I recommend any of her books, but that is the one where she thoroughly researches the Qur’an, the hadith and the history of the early Islamic community; Mernissi is a Muslim, a feminist and a professor of sociology in Morocco.) Let those of us who support those ideals, whether we are Muslim or not, take care that what we say does not undermine their efforts.
08 Nov 06
Originally posted by vistesdHere I'm talking about what Islam is not what really happen. Islamic laws are not applyed in any country in the world today. That is because of many factors. The most important thing is almost all Islamic countries were under occupation for many years. This occupation foced muslims to use their laws instead of the Islamic laws. Because of that when the occupation finished the Islamic Identity is lost and the Islamic laws no more used. Islam was poorly thought in Schools and so the culture changed to a mix of Islamic, Western and other cultures. This led to what we are now.
Ahosyney, you are an idealist! 🙂 Good. Because it is your responsibility to see that those ideals are realized across the ummah (just as it is for people of other religions, or no religion, in their communities). I do not know how realized they are in your home country, but they have yet to be realized throughout the Islamic world.
To non-Musl ...[text shortened]... eals, whether we are Muslim or not, take care that what we say does not undermine their efforts.
When Mulims were sticking to their religion they were the greatest nation in the world. But now we don't.
Today not many knows the real Islam even between Muslims. That make all the problems we face today. Many things are made by the name of Islam (Whether it is realy from Islamic source or not), but it doesn't have any origin in Islam.
I hope I was clear. English is a problem to express all my thoughts.
08 Nov 06
Originally posted by ahosyneyI understand. Your point about education is pretty much the same as Fatima Mernissi’s.
Here I'm talking about what Islam is not what really happen. Islamic laws are not applyed in any country in the world today. That is because of many factors. The most important thing is almost all Islamic countries were under occupation for many years. This occupation foced muslims to use their laws instead of the Islamic laws. Because of that when the occu ...[text shortened]... any origin in Islam.
I hope I was clear. English is a problem to express all my thoughts.
I recall a story, that I think I read in Mernissi, but I can’t find it right now, so I’ll go from memory:
One of the Caliphs—I think it was Uthman, but might have been Umar—was interpreting the Qur’an to the congregation in the mosque at Medina. When he was done, an older woman stood up to speak, and was recognized by the Caliph. She said: “You’re wrong. That is not a proper understanding of that passage in the Qur’an,” and she went on to give a different interpretation. When she was finished, the Caliph thought for a moment, and then said: “She is right. Hers is the correct understanding.”
08 Nov 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerWe are no more born evil or in sin than any other life form on earth.
Why is it an "evil concept"? Does the empirical evidence show that human beings in general are born perfect and infallible?
[b]I sincerely wish I and millions of like minded people could start a colony on another planet where we are not hell bent on destroying each other based on their religion.
How long do you think it would be before your ...[text shortened]... ny developed a form of religion anyway? How long before oppressive power structures took root?[/b]
We are no better and no worse than the animals we are currently running into extinction.
If we set up a colony right, we would write into the constitution there will be absolute separation of church and state I personally would enforce that issue. It is clear if such a colony were started and it started out with totally atheistic it would not be such in a few generations unless there was enough scientific progress in the hard issues to thwart invoking supernatural causes for everything unknown.
I am in no way suggesting I would create some shangrila but at least we would be out of the tryanny of present day earth religions bent on killing as many enemy as possible and I would personally set up the system where women would be absolutely equal, equal in pay and equal in responsibility. I can't make it totally equal obviously, because they bear the children but I would make sure in employment they would get the same pay as men. I would also make sure the men chosen would have no problem with the possiblity of having a woman lead them. I would not set it up in advance that a woman do so, just if there was an obviously superior woman for some leadership role, then by the forces I command she would be chosen and not turned down because some inferior man forces his way in with political shenanegans. If members of my colony would have it any other way, I would make sure they can start their own colony elsewhere, preferably light years away. I would make sure the educational system emphasised that women are just as smart as men, that they would then have an obligation to the colony to be as good as they can be and that men would also be expected to pull their own weight.
I would expect science, art, music to advance, going after the hard issues. I think the worse behaviour of mankind can be mostly vanquished, a society that would not condemn someone to years in jail for smoking a joint but go after the real issues of the day and not set up laws based on 2000 year old dogma. I think we can come up with a way of life that is as fair as humans can make it without invoking a god every time you want to take a pee.
08 Nov 06
Originally posted by vistesdHe was Omar the second Caliphs.
I understand. Your point about education is pretty much the same as Fatima Mernissi’s.
I recall a story, that I think I read in Mernissi, but I can’t find it right now, so I’ll go from memory:
One of the Caliphs—I think it was Uthman, but might have been Umar—was interpreting the Qur’an to the congregation in the mosque at Medina. When he was done, ...[text shortened]... Caliph thought for a moment, and then said: “She is right. Hers is the correct understanding.”
At that time woman was able to stop her leader and correct him. That is the Islamic culture I know and I wish every one knows.
He said, "The Woman is Correct and Omar is Wrong".
08 Nov 06
Originally posted by vistesdLets see how long she would survive in Iran.
Ahosyney, you are an idealist! 🙂 Good. Because it is your responsibility to see that those ideals are realized across the ummah (just as it is for people of other religions, or no religion, in their communities). I do not know how realized they are in your home country, but they have yet to be realized throughout the Islamic world.
To non-Musl ...[text shortened]... eals, whether we are Muslim or not, take care that what we say does not undermine their efforts.
08 Nov 06
2 edits
Originally posted by ahosyneySo I gather you are Sunni then. One thing I wondered, are there other sects of Islam besides those two? Can you see why I say there can be no godliness in people killing one another just because they are in another sect of the same religion. You have to have your head under a rock not to see the violence of Sheia vs Sunni as we speak in Iraq.
Iran is different. You can not take an example. Sheia belives in things the majority of Muslims don't.
It is clear if the US left, much as I think we should never have gone in there, but if we left now, Iran would own Iraq in short order with the Iraqi army now in disarray. You point out the sheia are somehow not muslim but the Sunni in Iraq are just as guilty of attacking Sheia as the other way around. Also what about the Taliban, are they Sheia?
08 Nov 06
Originally posted by sonhouseWe are no more born evil or in sin than any other life form on earth.
We are no more born evil or in sin than any other life form on earth.
We are no better and no worse than the animals we are currently running into extinction.
If we set up a colony right, we would write into the constitution there will be absolute separation of church and state I personally would enforce that issue. It is clear if such a colony were start ...[text shortened]... that is as fair as humans can make it without invoking a god every time you want to take a pee.
That may be so, but it is besides the point. The question wasn't a comparison of man's state to that of other life forms; the question was about whether man's state could be objectively said to be imperfect.
If we set up a colony right, we would write into the constitution there will be absolute separation of church and state I personally would enforce that issue.
LOL! An atheocratic dictatorship? Un-divine right of Kings?
It is clear if such a colony were started and it started out with totally atheistic it would not be such in a few generations unless there was enough scientific progress in the hard issues to thwart invoking supernatural causes for everything unknown.
Do you think people believe in religion simply because there isn't enough scientific knowledge? Is that why many scientists themselves are religious (or at least spiritual)?
a society that would not ... set up laws based on 2000 year old dogma.
Name one law in your country set up based on 2000-year old dogma.
I think we can come up with a way of life that is as fair as humans can make it without invoking a god every time you want to take a pee.
That's what Lenin & co. said.
08 Nov 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerSo I gather then that you feel the society we have set up now is as good as it can get? There can be nothing better?
[b]We are no more born evil or in sin than any other life form on earth.
That may be so, but it is besides the point. The question wasn't a comparison of man's state to that of other life forms; the question was about whether man's state could be objectively said to be imperfect.
If we set up a colony right, we would write into the consti ...[text shortened]... hout invoking a god every time you want to take a pee.
That's what Lenin & co. said.[/b]
The idea we are born into sin is just a brainwashing technique to instill fear in children so they get fully programmed for life therefore domesticated. I see however, it doesn't seem to stop people from killing and all the rest. Your society fails on so many levels its pathetic. Does the word hypocritical come to mind here? Not you personally, I am talking about the leaders of your religion.
08 Nov 06
Originally posted by ahosyneyI'm glad you said this. Due to similar factors, the ways of true Christianity are not applyed anywhere in the world today that I know of. As a matter of fact, you can take your words and substitute Christianity and Christians for Islam and Muslims and it would pretty much all be true. I hope you come to understand that just as most Christians have misconceptions about Islam because of what man has chosen to do with it, you have similar misconceptions about Christianity because of what man has chosen to do with it.
Here I'm talking about what Islam is not what really happen. Islamic laws are not applyed in any country in the world today. That is because of many factors. The most important thing is almost all Islamic countries were under occupation for many years. This occupation foced muslims to use their laws instead of the Islamic laws. Because of that when the occu ...[text shortened]... any origin in Islam.
I hope I was clear. English is a problem to express all my thoughts.
Like I've said before, I believe that at their core, they are about the same thing: Directing man to follow the ways of God instead of following the ways of the self. It's heart-breaking how mankind has messed it up so badly.