A priori knowledge

Originally posted by Suzianne
Would you call 33% of the world's population only a "few" people?

The "few" in question is from here: "For many are called, but few are chosen". Your "33%" is presumably a reference to all the people in the world who identify themselves as Christians. Is it your contention that all of these people are in some way "chosen" by your God figure?

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]So, it would appear from this that your position is that knowledge of God is not innate...

No, I'm saying it is innate. There doesn't necessarily have to be a clearly defined understanding of God for understanding the difference between good and evil, even in the most primitive form. Otherwise I would have to assume any primitive people ( ...[text shortened]... e generation to the next is in itself evidence of them having this sort of innate understanding.[/b]

So can you state what the innate knowledge of God is? Simply, are we born knowing that a God of some sort exists? Is your position the sensus divinorum of Calvin that LemonJello referred to?

I don't think that knowing what is good and what is bad can reasonably count towards knowledge of God. This can be explained in terms of theory of mind. Because I know my own likes and dislikes it is natural for me to project them onto others. I do not wish to be harmed so I project that same desire onto the minds I assume that others have. This type of thinking, I believe, is the basis for our knowledge of good and evil. However, even within a literally minded reading of the creation story humans gained the ability to discern good from evil by Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge. But the tree of knowledge did not give them the ability to know God exists. Adam and Eve already knew that because they'd met him. So what is your basis for thinking we have some innate notion of the existence of God?

Originally posted by DeepThought
The posts of some of the Christians in this forum have given me the impression that one of their beliefs is that humans are born with the a priori knowledge that God exists. In that case Atheists would be in denial of this. While I do not think that a tabula rasa quite correctly characterises the mind of a newborn baby I do not think there i ...[text shortened]... ng as innate, a priori, knowledge or do you think that we are born with a tabula rasa?

One Christian's understanding of atheism: Thread 157849 (Page 1) 07 Feb '14

"First, my thanks to the dozens of atheists who have patiently or impatiently listened to numerous questions and comments and replied to the best of their ability. Since Thanksgiving, 2013, lights have gradually come on to illuminate the previous darkness shrouding the topic. My vocabulary has also become enhanced with a few new words and definitions of old ones.

A hardnosed director of sales and marketing once set a boardroom full of subordinates straight on the most effective method of getting to the crux of unresolved issues and impossible challenges. We listened with rapt attention as John quietly spelled out his pragmatic method: "We get to the bottom of things with adroit questioning; continuing until we get down to the essence of the issue, challenge or problem: that which makes it what it is; we distill it to its irreducible entity then solve it".

Please know that I've done my level best to give due diligence in applying his successful method in grasping what's real and authentic relative to atheism on this forum. At its simplest, the word 'atheism' describes or defines the category of human beings who, at some point of god-curiosity or god-consciousness, have voluntarily decided they have no interest in knowing anything about god or of the possibility of a personal relationship with him. Deep within their innermost beings they have decided god doesn't exist; they've become convinced that further inquiry would be a colossal waste of time and energy.

In biblical terms: "Romans 1:18-20 New American Standard Bible Unbelief and Its Consequences:" "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." I believe an atheist at the point of god-consciousness (becoming aware of the possible existence of a supreme being and accountable for a personal choice for or against god) says, 'no'."

Originally posted by OdBod
From what you have said, Jesus did not die for everybody, only for those who believe in your god, irrespective of how "good" they have been.

That is not what is being said by Christians, by those that reject Him it could
be said that way. He died so we could answer His call, all of us could, which
is why I told you that since Jesus died for everyone, everyone is important!

It does not depend on our effort, what we have done, what we are doing it
all rests in the work of Jesus Christ. So we should be living our lives with
and for Him. He calls you, you should respond to Him, if I talk you into
something, another can talk you out of it, it needs to be real not some fake
look at me effort.

Originally posted by OdBod
An interesting suggestion, that " most" people don't do good things without religion. I think you must live in different world. Have you factored into your assertion all the terrible things done and being done in the name of religion? Reference your earlier statement regarding 33%, I wonder how many actually are genuine, rather than responding to surveys in an unthinking way?

The "good works" can be done by evil people for evil reasons. It does not
change that the works could be called "good", but it does change the
reasons and results for the works. The indwelling of God's Spirit, turns us
away from those types of things into something else, where the God who
loves us all see love as the guiding force for the good works we walk out in
our lives.

Originally posted by OdBod
An interesting suggestion, that " most" people don't do good things without religion. I think you must live in different world. Have you factored into your assertion all the terrible things done and being done in the name of religion? Reference your earlier statement regarding 33%, I wonder how many actually are genuine, rather than responding to surveys in an unthinking way?

I didn't say they don't "do good things" without religion, only that people are people and ever since we lived in caves, there has always been this underlying theme of "looking out for number one". An underlying theme regarding Christianity has always been this "helping others" idea put forth by Jesus, which was an amazing, and in retrospect, unique idea for the time.

And regarding the 33%, results of surveys have always been given the respect naturally accorded to humans, that they respond with honesty. Now whether or not this is the case is debatable, certainly, but no one on this planet can possibly set himself up as the judge of "who is responding honestly and who is responding cavalierly" as you suggest. I expect that in any survey regarding religious choice, honesty should probably prevail, since what is to be gained from lying by these participants?

And, as I have stated numerous times, the "evil" that religions do (which, btw, is not strictly a Christianity effect) is ultimately attributable to those evil persons involved, and not on the religion itself. And "not-so-amazingly", this is exactly how that evil will be dealt with at Judgement. As to how many of all respondents are of this "evil" variety, I would suggest that the percentage would be similar in all the world's religions, don't you think? And as such, it can be ignored as moot.

Originally posted by FMF
The "few" in question is from here: "For many are called, but few are chosen". Your "33%" is presumably a reference to all the people in the world who identify themselves as Christians. Is it your contention that all of these people are in some way "chosen" by your God figure?

Being a Christian is not a matter of being "chosen" by God. God calls all, and all that respond positively are "chosen". This is God's promise to all. It was never "my idea". Far from it.

And the 33% number is not "mine", either. It is a fact that 1 out of 3 people worldwide identify themselves as Christian, yes. That number has barely moved in 100 years, so you can go look it up using any reference material of your choice. The current number is estimated at somewhere around 2.2 billion, but this was estimated using the last "official" numbers for world population, which of course lag behind the true population. I expect we're closing in on 9 billion on the planet, and so accordingly, the number of Christians should be nearly 3 billion now.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I didn't say they don't "do good things" without religion, only that people are people and ever since we lived in caves, there has always been this underlying theme of "looking out for number one". An underlying theme regarding Christianity has always been this "helping others" idea put forth by Jesus, which was an amazing, and in retrospect, unique idea f ...[text shortened]... similar in all the world's religions, don't you think? And as such, it can be ignored as moot.

You seem to be suggesting that christianity invented the concept of helping others? I cant believe you meant that. With reference to "looking after number one" isn't that what you guys are doing? Do what you are told to by your religion and you get an eternal pay back. I admire your optimism regarding religious surveys. Like Kellyjay, do you believe no amount of good deeds would be acceptable to your god unless you believe in him/ her/it?

Originally posted by DeepThought
So can you state what the innate knowledge of God is? Simply, are we born knowing that a God of some sort exists? Is your position the sensus divinorum of Calvin that LemonJello referred to?

I don't think that knowing what is good and what is bad can reasonably count towards knowledge of God. This can be explained in terms of theory of min ...[text shortened]... met him. So what is your basis for thinking we have some innate notion of the existence of God?

I believe we are born basically with a blank slate. But that does not mean that we can not learn of the existence of God without being told. All we have to do is pay attention to nature around us to know there must be a Creator that started it all. We can know this by using simple common sense that the creator God gave us.

However, some details must come from revelation from God. We Christians believe that is the purpose of the holy scripture we call "The Bible" which we believe was written down by men inspired by the Holy Spirit of God. We have accepted the teachings of the Christ as the ultimate authority sent from God to man and therefore we take on the name "Christians" to identify our desire to do the will of God and Christ, even as we recognize our sinful nature.

Originally posted by OdBod
You seem to be suggesting that christianity invented the concept of helping others? I cant believe you meant that. With reference to "looking after number one" isn't that what you guys are doing? Do what you are told to by your religion and you get an eternal pay back. I admire your optimism regarding religious surveys. Like Kellyjay, do you believe no amount of good deeds would be acceptable to your god unless you believe in him/ her/it?

I never told you that, you really need to watch what was said to you! Just
believing isn't enough! The devil believes it will do him no good at all, you
can believe and reject Him and a lot of people do that!

No amount of good works will get you right with God, it is accepting Jesus'
righteousness He won for us that makes us good enough. It is following
after the Spirit of God who you receive when you accept Him as Lord that
will lead and teach you, getting you to do the good works He wants instead
of doing good things to make you look or feel good.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I never told you that, you really need to watch what was said to you! Just
believing isn't enough! The devil believes it will do him no good at all, you
can believe and reject Him and a lot of people do that!

No amount of good works will get you right with God, it is accepting Jesus'
righteousness He won for us that makes us good enough. It is followi ...[text shortened]... g you to do the good works He wants instead
of doing good things to make you look or feel good.

I think you are the one who should watch what they are posting. 27 MARCH 15 19.20 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " NO AMOUNT OF GOOD WORKS IS GOING TO BE ENOUGH ". !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by RJHinds
I believe we are born basically with a blank slate. But that does not mean that we can not learn of the existence of God without being told. All we have to do is pay attention to nature around us to know there must be a Creator that started it all. We can know this by using simple common sense that the creator God gave us.

However, some details must come ...[text shortened]... to identify our desire to do the will of God and Christ, even as we recognize our sinful nature.

So your position is that there is no innate knowledge of God, but even in the absence of Scripture we could deduce the existence of a creator from the fact of creation? You do not think that this is sufficient as we would not be able to deduce much about the nature of God or what a creator wanted from us and that this is what revealed wisdom in the form of the Bible is for. Does this fairly represent your position?

Originally posted by DeepThought
So your position is that there is no innate knowledge of God, but even in the absence of Scripture we could deduce the existence of a creator from the fact of creation? You do not think that this is sufficient as we would not be able to deduce much about the nature of God or what a creator wanted from us and that this is what revealed wisdom in the form of the Bible is for. Does this fairly represent your position?

Even babies know that hunger is "bad", pain is "bad", loneliness is "bad", etc etc. And you can know this because of how they respond. An innate understanding of good and evil doesn't necessary mean strictly defining innate as being a direct knowledge of God.

Originally posted by OdBod
I think you are the one who should watch what they are posting. 27 MARCH 15 19.20 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! " NO AMOUNT OF GOOD WORKS IS GOING TO BE ENOUGH ". !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree that is the truth you cannot work your way into heaven, and you
still are missing the point if that is all you see.