01 May 06
Originally posted by CodfishIt's a hard one to define without resorting to examples. Certainly that's my thought - it's like I know it when I see it ...
Normally, I would agree with you. But in this thread, several people have asserted that they know what secular spirituality is. When I ask them, they give me an example of one of their spiritual experiences, instead of what makes something spiritual.
No definition of secular spirituality has been posted.
All I want is someone to post something that looks like a definition instead of a vague example.
01 May 06
Originally posted by stockenExactly what did you think we were talking about in "See the difference [between 'religious atheism' and 'secular spirituality]?"
I missed this one. Spirituality and atheism belong to two different categories of concepts and therefore they cannot be identical? Perhaps I should have a go at this some other day when my head has cleared a little from all the pasta, but whomever said spirituality and atheism were equal?
Edit: As in: "Men and their genitals aren't equal, yet there are men with genitals."
01 May 06
Originally posted by no1marauderYou want to tell me that
You really need an English course. How about "American" or "teenage" before the words "spirituality" or "atheism"? Or any of a few thousand others?
"American spirituality" = "American atheism"?
Or that
"teenage spirituality" = "teenage atheism"?
At least read aloud to yourself what you write before hitting the 'Post' button.
Btw, even in the most extreme example, "spiritual atheism" would not be identical to "atheistic spirituality".
01 May 06
1 edit
Originally posted by lucifershammerWhat are you babbling about??
You want to tell me that
"American spirituality" = "American atheism"?
Or that
"teenage spirituality" = "teenage atheism"?
At least read aloud to yourself what you write before hitting the 'Post' button.
Btw, even in the most extreme example, "spiritual atheism" would not be identical to "atheistic spirituality".
I was responding to this ludicrous assertion of yours:
LH: I know that 'spirituality' and 'atheism' belong to two different categories of concepts. So, any subsequent qualifier to the two would also belong to two different categories -
01 May 06
Originally posted by lucifershammerWhile it's harder for me to think up examples of "secular spirituality" than it is for me to think up examples of "atheistic spirituality," I think I can come up with something.
Exactly what did you think we were talking about in "See the difference [between 'religious atheism' and 'secular spirituality]?"
I suppose one has to define "spirituality" as a sense of emotional connectivity or a shared purpose or destiny. A secular spiritualist for example might believe in a common bond between humans that is governed by some mysterious natural force (like an astrologer might dream up).
Disclaimer for the slow or overly anxious: I do not subscribe to this sort of "secular spirituality."
02 May 06
Originally posted by amannionIndeed it is dificult to define. But several people have made it sound like they know what it means to them, and have provided examples of what they might consider spiritual.
It's a hard one to define without resorting to examples. Certainly that's my thought - it's like I know it when I see it ...
How about a compromise:
You can use an example, but you also have to say what makes it spiritual vs. something else. For example, why love for family is spiritual while love for ice cream is not.
02 May 06
Originally posted by CodfishWhy don't you actually address the example that Bbarr, Telerion and I have given you?? Do you still have a hard time understanding that there are people who believe in spirits but who aren't religious per se?
Indeed it is dificult to define. But several people have made it sound like they know what it means to them, and have provided examples of what they might consider spiritual.
How about a compromise:
You can use an example, but you also have to say what makes it spiritual vs. something else. For example, why love for family is spiritual while love for ice cream is not.
02 May 06
Originally posted by no1marauderI have not seen a single person who has given an a clear example (i.e. animism) that personally believes in the example.
Why don't you actually address the example that Bbarr, Telerion and I have given you?? Do you still have a hard time understanding that there are people who believe in spirits but who aren't religious per se?
So, to the original forum question, it appears that no-one on this site (who has posted yet) believes that the answer is yes. Because the people so far are only capable of giving examples they don't believe are true.
If one of the examples listed is your personal belief, you are exempt from this post.
My personal answer is no, because I believe in religous spirituality.
02 May 06
2 edits
Originally posted by CodfishWell, the only real complaint you have here is that none of us personally hold the views in the examples, because all of them are very clear and very real.
I have not seen a single person who has given an a clear example (i.e. animism) that personally believes in the example.
So, to the original forum question, it appears that no-one on this site (who has posted yet) believes that the answer is yes. Because the people so far are only capable of giving examples they don't believe are true.
If one of the e ...[text shortened]... exempt from this post.
My personal answer is no, because I believe in religous spirituality.
If I asked you for an example of theistic spiritualism, and you replied, "Islam," should I dismiss your response because you are not a Muslim?
I really don't see why this is such an issue. Yes, there is atheistic spiritualism. No big deal. Let's all go home.
(or how about I get back to that thread I promised Hal).
02 May 06
Originally posted by CodfishIt's really none of your business what other people's personal beliefs are. I'm perfectly able to intellectually defend Zen Buddhism or Taoism or the belief in spirits or animism whether I "believe" in them or not. Since the first post in response was ridiculing the very idea of "secular spirituality" in an ignorant way so typical of the intolerance and bigotry of our resident theists it is unsurprising that others don't want to share personal beliefs that may be insulted.
I have not seen a single person who has given an a clear example (i.e. animism) that personally believes in the example.
So, to the original forum question, it appears that no-one on this site (who has posted yet) believes that the answer is yes. Because the people so far are only capable of giving examples they don't believe are true.
If one of the e ...[text shortened]... exempt from this post.
My personal answer is no, because I believe in religous spirituality.
02 May 06
Originally posted by Codfish"If one of the examples listed is your personal belief, you are exempt from this post."
I have not seen a single person who has given an a clear example (i.e. animism) that personally believes in the example.
So, to the original forum question, it appears that no-one on this site (who has posted yet) believes that the answer is yes. Because the people so far are only capable of giving examples they don't believe are true.
If one of the e ...[text shortened]... exempt from this post.
My personal answer is no, because I believe in religous spirituality.
That's very generous of you, Codswallop.
02 May 06
Originally posted by CodfishOkay, I'll give it a go.
Indeed it is dificult to define. But several people have made it sound like they know what it means to them, and have provided examples of what they might consider spiritual.
How about a compromise:
You can use an example, but you also have to say what makes it spiritual vs. something else. For example, why love for family is spiritual while love for ice cream is not.
I won't use love for family - that's a tricky one.
In my job I spend a fair bit of time outdoors in remote natural environments - mountains, forests, remote coastlines and so on. Sometimes when I'm in these places, I get a sense - a feeling if you like - of the inconsequential nature of my own personal existence. To me this seems to be a spiritual feeling. I feel that I'm a tiny part of a much bigger thing - some people call this the sense of the numinous.
Now I don't get this feeling when I'm back at home in the big city with the people and things and pressures on me and my time. My separation from society and particularly the urban allows me to develop some perspective on me and my life I guess.
Now I'm sure many will just call this a natural feeling - everyone gets it to some extent probably - which is true. But that's what I conisder to be spiritual for me.
One example anyway.
Not sure if that really answers your question ...
02 May 06
1 edit
I sense a smidgeon of hostility. 😳
But I don't think the question is whether secular spirituality exists.
I know it exists.
The original question, as I percieve it, has more to do with whether such beliefs should be used.
If one doesn't personally believe in secular spirituality, then he/she won't try and defend their beliefs.
Here is what might happen:
Me: Animism is intellectually sterile and false.
You: I agree
Wait a minute, there isn't an argument here.
However, If you personally believe in your topic, something like this might happen:
You: I believe that there is spirituality in finding something of value outside the self
Me: I disagree
Now we will present arguments to support our beliefs.
Do you see the difference?
02 May 06
Originally posted by CodfishA) LH mocked the very idea of "secular spirituality" so I don't think he agrees it exists;
I sense a smidgeon of hostility. 😳
But I don't think the question is whether secular spirituality exists.
I know it exists.
The original question, as I percieve it, has more to do with whether such beliefs should be used.
If one doesn't personally believe in secular spirituality, then he/she won't try and defend their beliefs.
Here is what mi ...[text shortened]... agree
Now we will present arguments to support our beliefs.
Do you see the difference?
B) If you can only put forth agruments in support of things you believe in, YOU are intellectually sterile. Ever been on a Debate team?