Spirituality
30 Dec 09
02 Jan 10
4 edits
Originally posted by SwissGambit====================================
#1 The number of wise men is really immaterial. Substitute "some" for "three" in my post - I'm fine with that.
#2 Yes, it's probably sensible to abandon the idea of a literal star. I just think it's funny how everyone tends to read that story and never once questions the idea that people are actually following a star to a specific house.
Yes, it's probably sensible to abandon the idea of a literal star. I just think it's funny how everyone tends to read that story and never once questions the idea that people are actually following a star to a specific house.
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It shouldn't be that hard to comprehend.
The virgin birth, the predicting of John the Baptist, the seemingly living star - these are supernatural interventions of God as He penetrates human history to accomplish His kingdom.
Something is happening which is beyond man's ability to perform.
When you step back and consider the big picture instead of puzzling over this or that isolated detail, I think you should get the rhythm.
These things do not happen everyday. But when it they did happen it was in connection to something very special in the history of the world.
I think you should get the bird's eye view. The One doing these things is the same one who in the beginning of the Bible created the heavens and the earth.
The point, He has the power and the authority to act this way in human history should it serve His purpose to do so.
Why is that hard to grasp?
03 Jan 10
Originally posted by josephwThey came from Persia. A Magi is a Zororastrian Priest. They were called "Wise men" and "kings of learing". They were following His prophecy about His return.
[b]"In my case, once I saw the responses that the question gathered, I feared that further discussion was a waste of time. Even if I accepted the theory you posted, none of it tells me how three guys from a faraway land find a specific house."
I really do understand were you're coming from.
#1 There wasn't three wise men.
#2 I don't think a star ...[text shortened]... up to nearly two years after Jesus' birth. They recognised the Messiah when they saw Him.[/b]
04 Jan 10
Originally posted by josephwFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How do you know that? You could be right, but how do you know?
The Magi are popularly referred to as wise men and kings. The word Magi is a Latinization of the plural of the Greek word magos (μαγος pl. μαγοι😉, itself from Old Persian maguŝ from the Avestan magâunô, i.e. the religious caste in which Zoroaster was born into, (see Yasna 33.7:' ýâ sruyê parê magâunô ' = ' so I can be heard beyond Magi '😉. The term refers to the priestly caste of Zoroastrianism.[3] As part of their religion, these priests paid particular attention to the stars, and gained an international reputation for astrology, which was at that time highly regarded as a science. Their religious practices and use of astrology caused derivatives of the term Magi to be applied to the occult in general and led to the English term magic. Translated in the King James early Church, in Acts 8:9-13.[Version as wise men, the same translation is applied to the wise men led by Daniel of earlier Hebrew Scriptures (Daniel 2:48). The same word is given as sorcerer and sorcery when describing "Elymas the sorcerer" in Acts 13:6-11, and Simon Magus, considered a heretic by the
05 Jan 10
Originally posted by jaywillI just want to get a mental picture of how the star actually led people to a house, if indeed it was a literal star. I'm not interested in your big picture. I think the stories of miracles were embellished at best and totally fabricated at worst by people who already had a desired belief system in mind.
[b]====================================
Yes, it's probably sensible to abandon the idea of a literal star. I just think it's funny how everyone tends to read that story and never once questions the idea that people are actually following a star to a specific house.
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It shouldn't be that hard to co ...[text shortened]... way in human history should it serve His purpose to do so.
Why is that hard to grasp?[/b]
I'm curious to see if there is a mental picture of how the star worked in the heads of anyone who actually believes there was a real star. I'm starting to think there isn't. Do they not even care to guess how it might have worked?
05 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by SwissGambitNot to detract from your point, because I think your curiosity deserves a response, but... I can't help but giggle every time I encounter the following sentiment:
I just want to get a mental picture of how the star actually led people to a house, if indeed it was a literal star. I'm not interested in your big picture. I think the stories of miracles were embellished at best and totally fabricated at worst by people who already had a desired belief system in mind.
I'm curious to see if there is a mental picture ...[text shortened]... I'm starting to think there isn't. Do they not even care to guess how it might have worked?
"I think the stories of miracles were embellished at best and totally fabricated at worst by people who already had a desired belief system in mind."
This thinking is employed to explain away miracles, the ascension to power of the Catholic Church, general mass manipulation and etc.. The problem, however, is that it's a square peg trying to be friends with a round hole.
Each of the forty or so authors responsible for the physical writing of the 66 books wrote them contemporaneously with their own time--- meaning, they were more or less shackled and limited by the knowledge available to them within their place and time in history. And, as the Bible has made achingly clear, not one person within any of the narratives understood what anything going on around them really meant. Even the apostles themselves were generally clueless about God's agenda, start to finish, until they received further revelation.
The point being, from human viewpoint thinking, the oddities found within the various biblical accounts--- and they are legion--- ought to have been simply eliminated by these so-called editors. And yet, they weren't. By way of example: clearly, when Moses wrote the account of God's promise to the woman that mankind would be blessed through her seed, he had to have been thinking of the difficulty inherent in reconciling such a position, given what was both known medically at the time of his place in history--- as well as the customary importance of male-dominating first-born hierarchy.
Faithfully, he breathed out what was first breathed in. Thusly did all recorders of Scripture. To impose some other agenda on their work is unfair and wholly unsupported by common sense.
05 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by FreakyKBHAnd here I was thinking the gospels were written decades after the events described therein, by people living in different countries than Israel, and writing in different languages than Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus. By people who never saw Jesus, or directly witnessed anything he did, but rather had accounts of him passed down through the years from person to person, by word of mouth, becoming more legendary tales as they spread.
Not to detract from your point, because I think your curiosity deserves a response, but... I can't help but giggle every time I encounter the following sentiment:
"I think the stories of miracles were embellished at best and totally fabricated at worst by people who already had a desired belief system in mind."
This thinking is employed to exp impose some other agenda on their work is unfair and wholly unsupported by common sense.
06 Jan 10
Originally posted by SwissGambitkinda like the north star. if you go that way you will eventually hit north pole. that would be the principle here. though i don't really believe it was a real star. or actually a light in the sky. ar actual real wisemen from the east(or west). it is one of the stories from the bible that are nice, but don't have to be real and bear little significance to the main idea of the NT.
How the hell does that work, anyway? It's obviously not your typical star if it can be that specific.
06 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by ZahlanziBut the North Star can't be that specific. It can only point you in a general direction. Sure, you'll run into a sheet of ice, but the star can't tell you when you're actually at the North Pole.
kinda like the north star. if you go that way you will eventually hit north pole. that would be the principle here. though i don't really believe it was a real star. or actually a light in the sky. ar actual real wisemen from the east(or west). it is one of the stories from the bible that are nice, but don't have to be real and bear little significance to the main idea of the NT.
06 Jan 10
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
How does the star episode go in the story?
1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi[a] from the east came to Jerusalem
2 and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."
3 When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him.
4 When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ[c] was to be born.
5"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:
6" 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'[d]"
7 Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared.
8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him."
9 After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east[e] went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was.
-Matthew 2
06 Jan 10
Originally posted by SwissGambitIt works if you subscribe to Ptolemaic theory, where the stars (embedded in their spheres) are much closer.
9 After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east[e] went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was.
-Matthew 2[/quote]
06 Jan 10
Originally posted by SwissGambitWell there are only two places on earth where a start can 'hang around' and thats the poles. The writers of the NT would have known that.
But the North Star can't be that specific. It can only point you in a general direction. Sure, you'll run into a sheet of ice, but the star can't tell you when you're actually at the North Pole.
Either the star (fictional or real) was intended to show a general direction (through interpretation) OR it was close to the earth. (e.g. an angel in hover mode) or something in geo-stationery orbit?